You know, not everyone wants to have sex all the time. And I don't remember you saying that you condone rape within marriage, but I do remember saying that you're playing the focus and emphasis on the wrong person, and putting responsibility (aka blame) on someone that you shouldn't be. And as to you saying that you already answered this publicly and privately, I told you that if you keep on trying to stick with this and post it, that I'm going to oppose you. You decided to post in here again, so that's why.

Yes you did warn me that you'd oppose me and I did warn you that I do not easily give in to peer pressure or anything like that.

I absolutely do not mind you questioning what I say I'm only asking you and others to use logic and good sense and just cause people don't like what they hear does not mean misinterpreting or misconstruing what is said on purpose is a good way to debate.

For example I don't like Republicans so if I ever debate that issue I'll have the intellectual honesty to debate what they say or do. I will NOT say that Republicans killed the dinosaurs just to make them look bad or just cause I can't find any other angle to debate them. I find that approach abhorrent and unnecessary, if I don't like them I take some time with myself to think about why I don't like them. From there I either have reasons and then I bring those reasons to the debate OR I realize that I have no good reasons and then I simply admit that I should not dislike or attack them in debate cause I don't really have things to hold against them. That's my approach to any issue that can be debated.

But I want to thank you for admitting that you see that I do not condone rape within marriage, it's an honest move from you and while we may strongly disagree on the rest of this debate or any future debate, I always appreciate this kind of honesty.

As for putting blame on the wrong person. I don't think I do. Perhaps this debate makes some people think that if I saw a victim of rape that I would point my finger with an angry stare and blame that person or something but that's not what I say or would do. The blame of the act of raping I CLEARLY put on the rapist. The words I use here are words specific to a debate, they are OBVIOUSLY not the same if I actually were in front of a rape victim. People need to understand this very important nuance. First you cannot just speak of this with a victim cause I believe that this is a very personal thing that a victim may not want to talk about so the first thing is to be really close to the victim to the point of her agreeing to trust you with details. Only then can you speak about this issue with the victim.

At that point I would never use words like "you are to blame" I would try to teach her to take RESPONSIBILITY for her future choices by teaching her to be more cautious, not to be too trusty of a guy she may not know well enough, I'd try to make her realize that we live in a world where there is violence and bad people and evil corporations and everything like that and that we ALL must wise up and realize that the powers out there do not mean us good and it's up to us to make choices that will be the best for ourselves. I'd try to make her realize that just cause some guy with a nice suit and a bright smile appears to be "gentleman-like" does not mean he may not have some nefarious intentions etc... in other words I'd make her be more wise and cautious and take more responsibility for HER CHOICES because if she can do that, chances of being a victim again will decrease.

Perhaps If I had been able to talk to her BEFORE she married that guy that would end up raping her, perhaps I could have saved her with my advice and words which you gentlemen deem horrible and unacceptable.

But isn't that what responsible parents do? Teach their kids responsibility for their choices? Doesn't the concerned father try to warn his 15 years old daughter to be very careful when she goes to some party? Or should that father tell his daughter: Sure go ahead, see the boys, do whatever they say: if something bad happens, you have no responsibility in your choices honey.

Would you do that? Cause I wouldn't, I would want my daughter to take as much responsibility in her choices as possible in the hopes that it would allow her to precisely make the right choices. Cause some of the boys at that party could have nefarious purposes and what is easier than to trick an innocent girl at a party? All it takes it to roofie her drink and voila. But a smart girl that takes responsibility for her choices will know BETTER, she will not let her drink unattended, will NOT follow this stranger in his car. will stay away from people that are up to no good etc...

But this culture of avoiding responsibility is what leads to rapes in my opinion, why teach her to be careful if her choices are not her responsibility, right?

I've been raised by a single Mother and my life has always been great! 3 languages, travelled the world, no addictions, no sins, working everyday in what I graduated (medicine).

My cousins on the other hand with married/"perfect family" parents:

- Twin cousins ared drug addicts (mostly weed but we never know)

- Girl cousin single goes to Electro Parties every weekend and rumored to be LSD addicted

- Other cousins never graduated in college, ...

Remember that this conversation is about marital rape.

In that context, why would you ever make statements like this?

"The point remains that when you marry someone it's as the priest VERY CLEARLY says: you do for the better and for the WORSE, in health and in sickness etc. in OTHER WORDS you are WARNED and at that point you choose to go on with marriage thus you take your responsibilities"

There is really no other way of reading that in this context than "you have been warned that you may be raped", and there shouldn't be much in the way of difficulty in understanding how that can be seen as saying that the woman has made the choice to enter into a lifelong bond under the knowledge that she may be victimized. As such, given what you have made very clear marriage means, it implies that this abuse should not be considered abnormal or grounds for leaving such a relationship without being the one who carries the sin of divorce.

You seem to like saying things which might sound innocent out of context, but we have been talking about marital rape for several pages now. You can't just say "well I wasn't talking about marital rape there", because that is what this conversation is about. You don't have the luxury to make statements without context when knee deep in a conversation about rape.

As for the mindset you have been pushing, while obviously people should make smart decisions, you cannot put all of the responsibility for avoiding abuse on the victim and certainly not on the decisions these women have made in the past. That is the key difference. You are harping on past "mistakes". "I guess you shouldn't have married him" isn't helpful to a rape victim. All it does is say to them "This is your fault".

What you should be doing is pushing for future smart decisions and helping them get through their past trauma. "How do I get myself out of this situation?" "How do I get the emotional help I need to get over this?" "How do I support my family without the person who has been abusing me?" "This was not my fault."

You should never say to a victim "Well, you made some dumb choices which got you raped" which is what your points boil down to. That is incredibly damaging. You should not try to put the responsibility for abuse on the victim for the myriad of reasons I outlined. A victim should not try to take responsibility for what what led to them getting raped. After the act has occurred, 100% of the responsibility falls on the perpetrator. By telling them that they should have made better decisions, you are telling them to carry their own victimization on their back. That is extremely emotionally damaging.

I think I do understand better what you are trying to say, but my god, you keep pushing things forward that are the worst solution imaginable. Yes, people should make smart decisions. Obviously. However, all you are doing by telling a rape victim that their own choices led them to their victimization is putting the burden on them, making them take the blame for it and making it more difficult for them to get back to a healthy mindset.

For example, take a look at RAINN's website and you'll see under their "Tips for Talking with Survivors of Sexual Assault":

“It’s not your fault. / You didn’t do anything to deserve this.” Survivors may blame themselves, especially if they know the perpetrator personally. Remind the survivor, maybe even more than once, that they are not to blame.

For those who don't know RAINN is the Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network which is a non-profit which works heavily with victims of sexual abuse.

Getting the idea through to victims that this is not your fault is pivotal to helping those victims. You don't need to beat them over the head with how they could have avoided this. I can guarantee that they have thought about that thousands of times. You need to tell them that it is not their fault. This idea of blame is what drives victims away from seeking help, keeps them in dangerous situations and haunts them long after the physical violence has ended.

I feel like I can see your good intentions in this post (though, it is hard to defend some of the things you have said), but you are so far off base that you are encouraging the exact mindset that victim's groups seek to combat.

I read all you said and what others said, I'm just removing the bulk of it from the quote to avoid an unnecessary bulky reply

Now to answer your question. And first I want to say that I have already answered it though in different forms perhaps, depending on the content of the messages I was answering to but I'm not ignoring you so I'll answer you too.

I am by no stretch of the imagination overlooking these facts that you explain, in fact I totally acknowledge them as part of how bad a marriage can end up being. In fact I even consider those things you said as even MORE reason to think twice and act responsible when you decide to marry someone. Because on top of the stuff you could foresee, there is the stuff you can't so you really need serious responsibility for your choices when entering such a seriously life impacting choice that is marriage.

But the fundamentals of my argument still stand in light of what you are saying. One needs to realize that one can end up not loving the other one or having to force oneself to live with someone for the sake of the children or that the other may end up being violent etc. People don't consider these possible turns of events when marrying and I believe they should. My logic is irrefutable, I'm not married so my wife won't beat me up or cheat on me or steal my kids and demand alimony or any other bad thing that can happen in marriage. I don't have to worry about ruining myself in lawyers against her that not only will take their toll financially but psychologically as well and the same goes to her, I will never cheat on her, steal our kids, beat her up, ruin her in lawyers because I am NOT married and don't plan to because no matter how terrible things your spouse decides to do to you in a worst case scenario and I totally agree that the spouse's choices to do bad things are his/her crime, there will still be a voice deep inside me that will say: You had a choice to not marry, you said "Yes, I do" to the priest and you said yes because you did not consider the possible consequences of marrying a human being that is by definition flawed and here you are. NOT responsible of the crime but responsible of the choice you made. Well that's what I'd say to myself should I fall victim to something bad inside marriage.

Now this which I just said strays a little from the main topic which is sex and a specific form of abusive sex called rape. I'm sorry if it sounds bizarre and it may be but I can't help thinking it's odd. You can't predict that he's going to beat you up, you can't predict that he's gonna steal your kids and ruin you in lawyers in the process (or you do him) you can't predict that he's going to cheat on you but you CAN predict that he is HUMAN and that one of the reasons he marries you is to have sex with you. Nay, let me rephrase: you don't even have to predict that he's human cause he obviously is and unless you've lived alone in a deserted island, you like everyone else are supposed to understand what humans are. You do have access to the news don't you? You see what humans can do, murder: rape, torture, kill, take power, dominate others, crush others to allow themselves to climb the ladder of success etc. If it's nasty, evil or disgusting you can bet somewhere, some human has done it.

Yet when you decide to marry one, it's as if you lost all knowledge you have accumulated throughout your life. You suddenly don't know what humans are capable of and you bind yourself to another human through marriage. Then for the sake of my argument let's go with the worst case scenario: he turns out to be a total asshole, beats you up and rapes you... Holy shit, what a surprise, you had NO IDEA what humans were capable of, like you thought you had married an angel or some kind of demigod that is wise beyond humanity and therefore could never rape or kill or abuse in any way?

So yeah it's odd in my humble opinion that you KNOW that sex is this powerful drive people can't resist, you KNOW that marriage is society basically telling you: go ahead screw each other's brains out it's legal and approved (don't mean rape at this point, just consenting sex),you KNOW that he's human and that as such he may not want to control his urges and that he could see marriage as a way not having to. you KNOW as a human he may be dangerous in many different ways (beating women up, raping them, murdering them, murdering kids etc...) and knowing all that you marry him/her... And when the shit hits the fan you're like: Wow I had no idea this could happen??? I totally could not have predicted this as a POSSIBLE outcome?

Like I said, maybe I'm too logical for my own good or something but I simply don't buy that and that's why I believe we all (me  included) must take RESPONSIBILITY for our choices in life. Just as the ones committing rapes must take responsibility for the crimes they commit as they are the SOLE responsible of the crime itself and just cause the victim did not take responsibility for his/her choices does not mean the criminal is exempt of his responsibility in the crime. The criminal remains the criminal and the victim is still the victim, it's obvious but I still want to repeat that as I don't wish for anyone thinking I'm blaming the victim for the crime.

I hope this answers your question and while you may disagree, please kindly respect my opinion as I do yours, thank you.

I feel like your entire argument falls apart when you consider that if you are not married, the same exact outcomes can occur. It isn't like you suddenly open yourself up to these new possibilities of rape when you get married, so how is performing the act of marriage in any way becoming responsible for the actions that led to the act (or however way you want to phrase it)?

You could even argue that, especially as a woman, the act of marriage protects you from numerous negative outcomes.

It is kind of like betting when the odds are 100-1 (in a situation where you are required to bet). Would you say that someone made a mistake if they lose or tell the person that maybe they should bet against the odds next time? No, because that doesn't make sense. These situations occur against the odds, so to become a slave to these possibilities is to cut yourself off from the potential positive outcomes, like saying "I'm not going to go to the beach because a shark might kill me". While you probably shouldn't be swimming if there are sharks around, you cannot expect someone to plan for every unlikely scenario because that would leave them locked in a padded cell, receiving a steady IV drip of nutrients because do you know how many people die from eating every year? Oh, you choked? You shouldn't have made the absolutely ridiculous decision to eat solid food.

There is so much else I want to say about this post (like, no, just because some fraction of people commit murder doesn't mean that you should expect everyone to be a murderer), but I'll leave it at this for now.

I was merely trying to answer to Hiku using a slightly different angle cause just "copy-pasting" what I have been trying to say for about a week now would be seriously redundant considering the fact I have been explaining my side of the argument in every way possible.

As for what you are saying now about the "same exact outcome occurring if you are not married" First the issue here is rape INSIDE marriage right? At least that's what I have been discussing. All other outcomes or issues are real too and worthy of a debate too but I have been so far only speaking of the very specific issue of rape inside marriage and I never said that other outcomes outside marriage are impossible or cannot happen.

But I must say I feel a bit discouraged when you ask "how is the act of marriage in any way becoming responsible for the actions that led to the act (I assume you mean the act of raping)" because I have almost literally answered that a million times so here goes again: I do not say one is responsible for the act of raping (the victim I mean) or any other bad outcome, the criminal is the sole person responsible of the crime when there is a crime (like rape), the victim is in my opinion responsible of the CHOICES he/she made. Everybody must be responsible of the choices one makes. the CHOICES, as for the crime itself, the victim is obviously not responsible for that.

As for that part of your argument where you say that stuff happens against the odds, well I can see what you mean but I don't entirely agree with that either. Indeed you cannot control every possible outcome of every possible decision you take in your life, but you still can hedge your bets can't you?

Let me use your own example as I think it can help. I agree when you say that if you think a shark could kill you then you'd end up never going to the beach (or I think that's what you are saying, sorry If I got you wrong). But you sill can make choices that will make a dire outcome in which a shark ends up killing you, a SUPER LOW probability. For example you can make the CHOICE of swimming in waters where sharks never go like in the beaches of northern Europe. But you can see a ton of people swimming in warm waters in southern beaches like the beaches of Australia. so to THOSE people I say, should a shark hurt you, it's not your fault but you are responsible of your CHOICE of swimming in waters where sharks are KNOWN to appear. Whereas I CHOOSE to only go to northern Europe's beaches where never a shark has been spotted or known to go to. My CHOICE in this example is RESPONSIBLE. I still could be attacked by a shark there but the odds are so incredibly low compared to someone who chooses to swim in southern hot Australian waters that in my opinion that person is NOT making responsible choices when swimming in such waters.

So the conclusion of my argument is that I agree we cannot control every possible outcome in our lives but our CHOICES if smart and RESPONSIBLE can seriously bring the odds in our favor. And my message to future victims of possible rapes is to take responsibility for their choices so that the odds can be in the victim's favor and maybe, just maybe the victim can end up not being a victim after all when making responsible choices.

1) To act like "Marital Rape" is sufficiently different from "Spousal Rape" is to basically use semantics to build a wall where none exists. While "marital rape" does have some additional stigma, in effect, the two are extremely similar. This leads to point 2...

2) Your cutting of my sentence seems to have cut out all the context of my question. Go back and reread the whole sentence and you should see that you did not answer my question. My point was that, as marital rape and spousal rape are not sufficiently different, the act of marriage does not incur further risk in effect. This means that by getting married, all you are doing is changing the verbiage of abuse, not the effect or reality of said abuse. As such, there is no logic in saying that someone accepted the risk by getting married, as that risk was already there. Are you understanding what I'm saying?

3) To introduce these additional elements is to move the goalposts, more or less. Basically, you have been arguing from a position where responsibility of the raped individual for the actions that led to this occurrence is the default, assumed position. You are not arguing from specific circumstances where risk is more apparent, you are arguing from this broad statement, that responsibility is the default. This is the core of my problem with your argument. That these "mistakes" are inherent to the situation.

You are not asking for clarification as to whether these individuals were swimming in Australia or England (so to speak), you are simply placing the responsibility on the victim by default.

4) And finally, I would just like to stress that there is a pretty big difference between telling someone to make responsible decisions and telling someone that they have made poor choices. I'll add that one of my biggest problems with your arguments has been that you have been applying these criticisms to actions that someone took in the past. You have been pushing for telling a rape victim how their actions led to them being raped. I have no issue with, say, encouraging victims of domestic abuse to go to the police. I do have a pretty big problem with saying to victims of domestic abuse "You did say 'for better or for worse', so I mean, you shouldn't be surprised by the fact that you have been abused. You need to take responsibility for your actions."

I think the more important and relevant stat is that 40% of children are raised by single parents. That is far more important since having both parents is essential for stability and having a complete character. You will always be missing something if you grew up withotu a father and mother figure not necessarily your biological parents but the parents that nurture you

You are coming to all the wrong conclusions. If you think 40% of fathers are abusive, you're crazy. It's more to do with a lot of divorce and courts favouring mother's more than fathers that's led to this