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Forums - Politics Discussion - Italian election results

I think it's telling the self-described PD supporter (Luke888) calls them "the left" while simultaneously calling them center-right.
"let's pretend and call things by something else than it really is because it makes it easier to rationalize buying into status quo"
sums up election for PD, and why nobody trusts them because... obviously. (not attacking Luke888 here, honesty is good)

With Renzi quitting (who opposed M5S coalition, and facilitated consolidation of PD into liberal center-right vehicle more
comfortable with Macron's En Marche and Spain's Ciudadanos, precipitating exit from PD of "real" center-left socialists)
that leaves M5S + PD coalition as most likely outcome by what I understand, exactly what M5S' Di Maio openly called for.
I wonder if this post-Renzi PD would change enough to bring back the anti-Renzi dissidents who found their way to LeU.

I recall reading interview with center-right supporter who shifted from supporting FI to voting for PD solely because of
dislike for Lega (and probably their overt fascist electoral allies), which makes PD's poor showing all the more spectacular,
if even with support from that sector one could consider that guy representative of, they still had horrible end result.
Which is really the norm for liberal center-right, there is no significant popular base for it, and cases of their popularity
like Spain's Ciudadanos swing on tangential issues (Catalonia, anti-corruption sentiment vs PP while C's never in power),
or of course, to use the famous comparison, the Nazis' own leverage of nationalist hate to cover for privatization policy.

Then it's hilarious to see all the non-Italian "Atlantic Council" crowd get hyped over "Russia" angle while
Italians across political spectrum largely couldn't care less and would prefer constructive friendly relations.
Of course, de facto, Italian governments have caved in to support Russia sanctions, just as they caved in to
allow NATO to bomb and overthrow Libya using Italian territory, despite good Italian relations with Qadafi,
and the obviously apparent negative repurcussions Italy has felt since the war (likewise for NATO war vs Syria).

Meanwhile we get standard "Russia backs far-right" BS ignoring how happy NATO is to deal with far-right
whether in Baltics, Ukraine or Bulgaria where government includes fascists solely to keep out "pro-Russia" socialists.
(same fascists previously cast as "pro-Russia" in NATO-strong circles, but when they're useful, no complaints)
Of course same circles tended to complain of things like good relations of Schroder (German SPD) with Russia,
which is as mainstream center-left as you can get, almost like they make up scare propaganda to suit their needs.

Anyways, while thread is on Italy, is there any chance they get the EU Medicine Agency returned to Milan?
Seems to me if Dutch aren't compliant by a certain date leading up to Brexit deadline, it seems reasonable
Milan be substituted, being as it equally reached final round (only losing by coin-toss) and fulfills all needs 100%.

Last edited by mutantsushi - on 05 March 2018

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Luke888 said:
Hiku said:

Anything you can add to this video? :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdhQzXHYLZ4&t=1s

"I like him because he puts Italian's first.
And I guess he's a fascist too. What can you do?"

You could not vote for him...? lol

YES! Oliver didn't pay enough attention to the M5S as the votes prove, they are INSANE, most people vote them for protest or because of their claim I've already mentioned of "we're the only good politicians", additionally they are promising a "citizenship income", which they want to guarantee to lots of people and of course is unaffordable by our current economical situation. The citizenship income is the main reason why the M5S got this many votes: the votes for M5S mostly came from the South while the votes for Lega came mostly from the North (Lega used to be a separationist party), this is due to the lack of jobs for Italians living in the South which has been an issue since Italy's birth. Overall it's clear to anyone that grasps a little of politics that M5S is a "too good to be true" party and as soon as they'll be at the lead of the country they'll just turn the country in a flaming ball of chaos.

On the Fascist Oliver omitted that while yes, Lega is racist and somewhat fascist, they're not even the WORST in the elections, there's currently two Far Right parties, CasaPound and Forza Nuova, who are admitedly neo-fascist, they have no problem to admit it and, while both of them are under 1%, they are still a HUGE problem because they can easily gain votes from Lega, which as we know now has 18% of the total votes. To be clear, our constitution, which was adopted in 1948 afted the fall of Mussolini, is supposed to ban all sorts of fascist or violent parties, but, due to it being rushed after the end of the war, its misleadingly worderd, this makes it so that the only illegal thing is creating the "Fascist Party", as in a party that is litterally named Fascist, anything else is allowed. Many tried to change the constitution but it's extremely hard and this point was never fixed.

On the opposite side the Left isn't perfect too, while PD (which is center-right) was by far the best option (personal opinion), there are also comunist parties, first of which is PaP, while they have proven to be less aggressive than the Far Right, they were involved with fights against the police in the last few months, which caused a growth in popularity of the Far Right parties

Thanks for the info. It's quite informative. Could you tell me a bit about this "citizenship income" though? I'm not familiar with the term, and wasn't able to pinpoint with certainty what you may be referring to on Google.

But yeah, has there been any good recent example of so called "anti-establishment" parties that actually turn out positive for the country and do what they proclaim?
Not like Trump who pretended he would "get everyone covered for medicare", no cuts to medicare/medicaid, would drain the swamp and berated Hillary for dealing with Goldman Sachs who he claimed were the worst bankers of America and robbed the middle class, only to hire 7 Goldman Sachs members himself for his cabinet and put more millionaires and billionaires in his administration (many of whom had no qualification for the position other than donating millions to Trump and the GOP) than any president before him.
Or even the little things like "I won't be signing as many executive orders" or "I won't be golfing as much as Obama. Believe me", and then in just the first 5 months he had golfed more than Obama had in 8 years.
Or "Mexico will pay for the wall." There were a lot of signs that this was very unlikely to happen (like when he met with the Mexican president and said that they never discussed funding of the wall), but many people don't pay attention, and just vote for what sounds good. And it often is too good to be true.

As for the parties with 1% that can gain traction, yeah. We have a party here in Sweden that was literally founded by Nazi's as a white nationalist party. They have since claimed to sever ties with neo Nazis and white nationalists, but several of their political leaders have been caught with either memberships in other white nationalist groups, or singing white supremacist music, etc. There's really only one reason for why they would keep that party, rather than starting a new one. Because while they want support from their base (wink, wink) they also want support non-Neo Nazis and non-racists etc. And they do. And their influence grew to the point where they now are the third largest party in our country.

Last edited by Hiku - on 05 March 2018

KungKras said:
It's pretty obvious that Russia is trying to dismantle the EU and boost nationalist movements in western countries.

Like Ceasar said, "divide and conquer"



mutantsushi said:

I think it's telling the self-described PD supporter (Luke888) calls them "the left" while simultaneously calling them center-right.
"let's pretend and call things by something else than it really is because it makes it easier to rationalize buying into status quo"
sums up election for PD, and why nobody trusts them because... obviously. (not attacking Luke888 here, honesty is good)

With Renzi quitting (who opposed M5S coalition, and facilitated consolidation of PD into liberal center-right vehicle more
comfortable with Macron's En Marche and Spain's Ciudadanos, precipitating exit from PD of "real" center-left socialists)
that leaves M5S + PD coalition as most likely outcome by what I understand, exactly what M5S' Di Maio openly called for.
I wonder if this post-Renzi PD would change enough to bring back the anti-Renzi dissidents who found their way to LeU.

I recall reading interview with center-right supporter who shifted from supporting FI to voting for PD solely because of
dislike for Lega (and probably their overt fascist electoral allies), which makes PD's poor showing all the more spectacular,
if even with support from that sector one could consider that guy representative of, they still had horrible end result.
Which is really the norm for liberal center-right, there is no significant popular base for it, and cases of their popularity
like Spain's Ciudadanos swing on tangential issues (Catalonia, anti-corruption sentiment vs PP while C's never in power),
or of course, to use the famous comparison, the Nazis' own leverage of nationalist hate to cover for privatization policy.

Then it's hilarious to see all the non-Italian "Atlantic Council" crowd get hyped over "Russia" angle while
Italians across political spectrum largely couldn't care less and would prefer constructive friendly relations.
Of course, de facto, Italian governments have caved in to support Russia sanctions, just as they caved in to
allow NATO to bomb and overthrow Libya using Italian territory, despite good Italian relations with Qadafi,
and the obviously apparent negative repurcussions Italy has felt since the war (likewise for NATO war vs Syria).

Meanwhile we get standard "Russia backs far-right" BS ignoring how happy NATO is to deal with far-right
whether in Baltics, Ukraine or Bulgaria where government includes fascists solely to keep out "pro-Russia" socialists.
(same fascists previously cast as "pro-Russia" in NATO-strong circles, but when they're useful, no complaints)
Of course same circles tended to complain of things like good relations of Schroder (German SPD) with Russia,
which is as mainstream center-left as you can get, almost like they make up scare propaganda to suit their needs.

Anyways, while thread is on Italy, is there any chance they get the EU Medicine Agency returned to Milan?
Seems to me if Dutch aren't compliant by a certain date leading up to Brexit deadline, it seems reasonable
Milan be substituted, being as it equally reached final round (only losing by coin-toss) and fulfills all needs 100%.

Sorry, my bad, PD isn't center-right but center-left of course, I was tired when I made my answer and mixed them up. Renzi said he's resigning as soon as the new government is decided, this is to guarantee that PD doesn't form alliances neither with the Right coalition and the M5S. I spoke with other PD supporters and the general consensus is that Renzi made the right call, parties that go to the opposition tend to gain votes in Italy in the following elections and this prevents anyone to give PD the fault for anything bad that could happen during the next government. Renzi's stance was clear, he wants the populist parties to lead so that people realize how awful they are. LeU is a party born dead, it's lead by old politicians, they didn't meet their 6% goal and are already crumbling on themselves, I already consider their votes to be split between PD and M5S in the next elections (assuming M5S will still be a thing).

About EMA we're doing our best to get it in Milan, it's crazy that such a decision was taken by a coin-toss, even after multiple ties.

 

Hiku said:
Luke888 said:

YES! Oliver didn't pay enough attention to the M5S as the votes prove, they are INSANE, most people vote them for protest or because of their claim I've already mentioned of "we're the only good politicians", additionally they are promising a "citizenship income", which they want to guarantee to lots of people and of course is unaffordable by our current economical situation. The citizenship income is the main reason why the M5S got this many votes: the votes for M5S mostly came from the South while the votes for Lega came mostly from the North (Lega used to be a separationist party), this is due to the lack of jobs for Italians living in the South which has been an issue since Italy's birth. Overall it's clear to anyone that grasps a little of politics that M5S is a "too good to be true" party and as soon as they'll be at the lead of the country they'll just turn the country in a flaming ball of chaos.

On the Fascist Oliver omitted that while yes, Lega is racist and somewhat fascist, they're not even the WORST in the elections, there's currently two Far Right parties, CasaPound and Forza Nuova, who are admitedly neo-fascist, they have no problem to admit it and, while both of them are under 1%, they are still a HUGE problem because they can easily gain votes from Lega, which as we know now has 18% of the total votes. To be clear, our constitution, which was adopted in 1948 afted the fall of Mussolini, is supposed to ban all sorts of fascist or violent parties, but, due to it being rushed after the end of the war, its misleadingly worderd, this makes it so that the only illegal thing is creating the "Fascist Party", as in a party that is litterally named Fascist, anything else is allowed. Many tried to change the constitution but it's extremely hard and this point was never fixed.

On the opposite side the Left isn't perfect too, while PD (which is center-right) was by far the best option (personal opinion), there are also comunist parties, first of which is PaP, while they have proven to be less aggressive than the Far Right, they were involved with fights against the police in the last few months, which caused a growth in popularity of the Far Right parties

Thanks for the info. It's quite informative. Could you tell me a bit about this "citizenship income" though? I'm not familiar with the term, and wasn't able to pinpoint with certainty what you may be referring to on Google.

But yeah, has there been any good recent example of so called "anti-establishment" parties that actually turn out positive for the country and do what they proclaim?
Not like Trump who pretended he would "get everyone covered for medicare", no cuts to medicare/medicaid, would drain the swamp and berated Hillary for dealing with Goldman Sachs who he claimed were the worst bankers of America and robbed the middle class, only to hire 7 Goldman Sachs members himself for his cabinet and put more millionaires and billionaires in his administration (many of whom had no qualification for the position other than donating millions to Trump and the GOP) than any president before him.
Or even the little things like "I won't be signing as many executive orders" or "I won't be golfing as much as Obama. Believe me", and then in just the first 5 months he had golfed more than Obama had in 8 years.
Or "Mexico will pay for the wall." There were a lot of signs that this was very unlikely to happen (like when he met with the Mexican president and said that they never discussed funding of the wall), but many people don't pay attention, and just vote for what sounds good. And it often is too good to be true.

As for the parties with 1% that can gain traction, yeah. We have a party here in Sweden that was literally founded by Nazi's as a white nationalist party. They have since claimed to sever ties with neo Nazis and white nationalists, but several of their political leaders have been caught with either memberships in other white nationalist groups, or singing white supremacist music, etc. There's really only one reason for why they would keep that party, rather than starting a new one. Because while they want support from their base (wink, wink) they also want support non-Neo Nazis and non-racists etc. And they do. And their influence grew to the point where they now are the third largest party in our country.

The citizenship income is supposed to be a monthly distribution of money for up to 780€/month for citizens that earn less than 780€/month, this, while being a great idea, is crazy if put into practice, over 9M italians would be affected by the citizenship income and with the rise of NEET among young italians only a fool would put this into practice, especially when the money for the citizenship income would allow for great incentives in the South, allowing it to progress and possibly get closer to the rest of the country.

Last edited by Luke888 - on 06 March 2018

Luke888 said: 

Sorry, my bad, PD isn't center-right but center-left of course, I was tired when I made my answer and mixed them up. Renzi said he's resigning as soon as the new government is decided, this is to guarantee that PD doesn't form alliances neither with the Right coalition and the M5S... LeU is a party born dead, it's lead by old politicians, they didn't meet their 6% goal and are already crumbling on themselves, I already consider their votes to be split between PD and M5S in the next elections (assuming M5S will still be a thing).

About EMA we're doing our best to get it in Milan, it's crazy that such a decision was taken by a coin-toss, even after multiple ties.

Umm... Freudian slip? You misunderstood my point re: LeU, their recent result is unimpressive but I was exactly discussing the ex-PD dissidents returning to post-Renzi PD, conforming with your own scenario of "LeU crumbling and vote splitting to support PD in next election", via PD making accommodations to facilitate that. Renzi policy seen as popular failing (why he is leaving) plausibly opens window for policy shift, and while PD could continue in same basic vein (which Renzi seems intent on ensuring, hardly a humble renunciation), it seems plausible a new policy direction could also coincidentally mend the divorce he triggered.

Or not, but with ALL of PD not being needed for majority coalition with M5S (who only need ~10% more), an alternate scenario with PD refusing to accommodate to dissidents/M5S is ~1/3 of PD leaving to join with LeU and 5* alliance. Regardless of that, the question is what neo-Renzi PD see as viable path, about only option remaining is joining Forza and Lega and calling it center-right as long as they exclude Brothers/Pound. Or maybe no problem with them, MSM happily calls them "center-right alliance", like they shrug at fascists in Baltics, Ukraine, Bulgarian government... Who cares, if they are NATO-strong and enact right liberal reforms? (OFC being rude to a German Green is beyond the pale)

Anyhow, so what is alternate scenario if no coalition is possible now? I believe even temporary government with new elections needs parliamentary basis, so what will that be? Minority government theory depends on both ruling minority and outside support both finding it in their interests.  Not sure if M5S would take deal that is calculated to be against it's interests... With itself now open to coalition but others rejecting it, it can leave culpability to others for refusing coalition and finish with system/anti-system dichotomy.

As far as EMA, of course Dutch won by same process anybody else could have, but it seems dubious to force malfunctional situation on agency already facing troubles of relocation if the claims which supported win end up being untrue. Not personally familiar with all bureaucracy involved, but I get feeling it can't just be given to Milan by vote, but instead a technical process could be voted allowing Dutch one final chance to fulfill the requirements and claims, but if there isn't clarity soon don't wait until Brexit for "surprise", default to Milan so req's are fulfilled smoothly without risk.

Last edited by mutantsushi - on 06 March 2018

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Hmmm, interesting stuff. I feel as a (mostly) Italian American I should know more about their political system/parties, but I've realized I know next to nothing until reading this lol.

Interesting to see what sounds like yet another Trump/Brexit/Le Penn right wing populist situation popping up. I think a lot of it is just the natural swinging of the pendulum in a backlash to liberal/neoliberal politics that have dominated much of the West more or less for several decades, along with the increase of immigration spurring a greater increase of this.



 

"We hold these truths t-be self-ful evident. All men and women created by the.. Go-you know the.. you know the thing!" - Joe Biden

I am a little lost here. Can anyone tell me the entire situation in Italy, please?



DarthMetalliCube said:

Hmmm, interesting stuff. I feel as a (mostly) Italian American I should know more about their political system/parties, but I've realized I know next to nothing until reading this lol.

Interesting to see what sounds like yet another Trump/Brexit/Le Penn right wing populist situation popping up. I think a lot of it is just the natural swinging of the pendulum in a backlash to liberal/neoliberal politics that have dominated much of the West more or less for several decades, along with the increase of immigration spurring a greater increase of this.

Speaking as one myself, (US)Americans are just blatantly ignorant about anything political, internationally or otherwise. There is no conception outside of narrow stage managed US political managed infotainment. US is in free-trade zone with Canada and Mexico yet how many Americans know even the most basic contours of those countries' politics since the period of NAFTA? This is irrespective of allegiance to DNC/RNC political "brands", same people who "sympathize" with Mexican immigrants to US can't be bothered to know basic details of politics of Mexico or really care what goes on there, if they support "diversity" in the US that is enough for them. 

Americans consider Japan a major democratic country, yet aren't aware it has been ruled by one party nearly continually for 70 years. Same people got excited about carving up Sudan because Clooney told them, and forget about it when they start killing each other, or think how great it is to cry about Rwanda genocide while ignoring US support of Tutsi RPF before, during, and after (excluded from ICTR process specifically designed to only prosecute losing side). (although an interest factoid I found was knowledge of foreign geography tended to correlate with less support for US wars and coups etc... must be why US media is so good at informing it's audience /s)

I don't think one can ascribe Brexit to "right wing populism", during the exact same period the most "left wing" Labour Party in recent time has rocketed in popularity. Casting immigration as over-arching primary issue also seems to be questionable, even if many (both pro/con) find it convenient to focus on that, I don't see that being sole critical issue in either Italy or UK, to the extent it matters is more how it intersects with other issues... i.e. at beginning of EU "refugee crisis" big business bosses openly said "this is good, more cheap labor".  What you say re: domination of liberal regime does cut to the matter IMHO, with US historically having most successfully repressed socialist politics, and EU catching up to it. The fixation on (right or left) "populism" seems like ploy to distract from mass *un*-popularity of liberal regime, which has little natural base but has historically allied itself with polarizing causes... e.g. Nazi Germany was not question of alien force suddenly gaining majority, but existing liberal power base deciding to ally with Nazis to get rid of Communists and pull off privatizations etc. Or Cold War alliance vs "Communist Threat". Or Post-Soviet vague hand-waving about "end of history" bla bla. 



mutantsushi said:
Luke888 said: 

Sorry, my bad, PD isn't center-right but center-left of course, I was tired when I made my answer and mixed them up. Renzi said he's resigning as soon as the new government is decided, this is to guarantee that PD doesn't form alliances neither with the Right coalition and the M5S... LeU is a party born dead, it's lead by old politicians, they didn't meet their 6% goal and are already crumbling on themselves, I already consider their votes to be split between PD and M5S in the next elections (assuming M5S will still be a thing).

About EMA we're doing our best to get it in Milan, it's crazy that such a decision was taken by a coin-toss, even after multiple ties.

Umm... Freudian slip? You misunderstood my point re: LeU, their recent result is unimpressive but I was exactly discussing the ex-PD dissidents returning to post-Renzi PD, conforming with your own scenario of "LeU crumbling and vote splitting to support PD in next election", via PD making accommodations to facilitate that. Renzi policy seen as popular failing (why he is leaving) plausibly opens window for policy shift, and while PD could continue in same basic vein (which Renzi seems intent on ensuring, hardly a humble renunciation), it seems plausible a new policy direction could also coincidentally mend the divorce he triggered.

Or not, but with ALL of PD not being needed for majority coalition with M5S (who only need ~10% more), an alternate scenario with PD refusing to accommodate to dissidents/M5S is ~1/3 of PD leaving to join with LeU and 5* alliance. Regardless of that, the question is what neo-Renzi PD see as viable path, about only option remaining is joining Forza and Lega and calling it center-right as long as they exclude Brothers/Pound. Or maybe no problem with them, MSM happily calls them "center-right alliance", like they shrug at fascists in Baltics, Ukraine, Bulgarian government... Who cares, if they are NATO-strong and enact right liberal reforms? (OFC being rude to a German Green is beyond the pale)

Anyhow, so what is alternate scenario if no coalition is possible now? I believe even temporary government with new elections needs parliamentary basis, so what will that be? Minority government theory depends on both ruling minority and outside support both finding it in their interests.  Not sure if M5S would take deal that is calculated to be against it's interests... With itself now open to coalition but others rejecting it, it can leave culpability to others for refusing coalition and finish with system/anti-system dichotomy.

As far as EMA, of course Dutch won by same process anybody else could have, but it seems dubious to force malfunctional situation on agency already facing troubles of relocation if the claims which supported win end up being untrue. Not personally familiar with all bureaucracy involved, but I get feeling it can't just be given to Milan by vote, but instead a technical process could be voted allowing Dutch one final chance to fulfill the requirements and claims, but if there isn't clarity soon don't wait until Brexit for "surprise", default to Milan so req's are fulfilled smoothly without risk.

If no coalition is made (which seems the most likely scenario after the latest statements from Renzi and Salvini), the italian President (who is the one that should choose the PM from a majoritary coalition) will chose a new government in order to create a new electoral law to make new elections, that way the results of the new elections should finally give a majority the rights to make a new government



badest thing is berlusconi is still a free man, a normal human would be already in prison for what he has done, but here we see that with money you can do what you want