I think it's telling the self-described PD supporter (Luke888) calls them "the left" while simultaneously calling them center-right.
"let's pretend and call things by something else than it really is because it makes it easier to rationalize buying into status quo"
sums up election for PD, and why nobody trusts them because... obviously. (not attacking Luke888 here, honesty is good)

With Renzi quitting (who opposed M5S coalition, and facilitated consolidation of PD into liberal center-right vehicle more
comfortable with Macron's En Marche and Spain's Ciudadanos, precipitating exit from PD of "real" center-left socialists)
that leaves M5S + PD coalition as most likely outcome by what I understand, exactly what M5S' Di Maio openly called for.
I wonder if this post-Renzi PD would change enough to bring back the anti-Renzi dissidents who found their way to LeU.

I recall reading interview with center-right supporter who shifted from supporting FI to voting for PD solely because of
dislike for Lega (and probably their overt fascist electoral allies), which makes PD's poor showing all the more spectacular,
if even with support from that sector one could consider that guy representative of, they still had horrible end result.
Which is really the norm for liberal center-right, there is no significant popular base for it, and cases of their popularity
like Spain's Ciudadanos swing on tangential issues (Catalonia, anti-corruption sentiment vs PP while C's never in power),
or of course, to use the famous comparison, the Nazis' own leverage of nationalist hate to cover for privatization policy.

Then it's hilarious to see all the non-Italian "Atlantic Council" crowd get hyped over "Russia" angle while
Italians across political spectrum largely couldn't care less and would prefer constructive friendly relations.
Of course, de facto, Italian governments have caved in to support Russia sanctions, just as they caved in to
allow NATO to bomb and overthrow Libya using Italian territory, despite good Italian relations with Qadafi,
and the obviously apparent negative repurcussions Italy has felt since the war (likewise for NATO war vs Syria).

Meanwhile we get standard "Russia backs far-right" BS ignoring how happy NATO is to deal with far-right
whether in Baltics, Ukraine or Bulgaria where government includes fascists solely to keep out "pro-Russia" socialists.
(same fascists previously cast as "pro-Russia" in NATO-strong circles, but when they're useful, no complaints)
Of course same circles tended to complain of things like good relations of Schroder (German SPD) with Russia,
which is as mainstream center-left as you can get, almost like they make up scare propaganda to suit their needs.

Anyways, while thread is on Italy, is there any chance they get the EU Medicine Agency returned to Milan?
Seems to me if Dutch aren't compliant by a certain date leading up to Brexit deadline, it seems reasonable
Milan be substituted, being as it equally reached final round (only losing by coin-toss) and fulfills all needs 100%.

Thanks for the info. It's quite informative. Could you tell me a bit about this "citizenship income" though? I'm not familiar with the term, and wasn't able to pinpoint with certainty what you may be referring to on Google.

But yeah, has there been any good recent example of so called "anti-establishment" parties that actually turn out positive for the country and do what they proclaim?
Not like Trump who pretended he would "get everyone covered for medicare", no cuts to medicare/medicaid, would drain the swamp and berated Hillary for dealing with Goldman Sachs who he claimed were the worst bankers of America and robbed the middle class, only to hire 7 Goldman Sachs members himself for his cabinet and put more millionaires and billionaires in his administration (many of whom had no qualification for the position other than donating millions to Trump and the GOP) than any president before him.
Or even the little things like "I won't be signing as many executive orders" or "I won't be golfing as much as Obama. Believe me", and then in just the first 5 months he had golfed more than Obama had in 8 years.
Or "Mexico will pay for the wall." There were a lot of signs that this was very unlikely to happen (like when he met with the Mexican president and said that they never discussed funding of the wall), but many people don't pay attention, and just vote for what sounds good. And it often is too good to be true.

As for the parties with 1% that can gain traction, yeah. We have a party here in Sweden that was literally founded by Nazi's as a white nationalist party. They have since claimed to sever ties with neo Nazis and white nationalists, but several of their political leaders have been caught with either memberships in other white nationalist groups, or singing white supremacist music, etc. There's really only one reason for why they would keep that party, rather than starting a new one. Because while they want support from their base (wink, wink) they also want support non-Neo Nazis and non-racists etc. And they do. And their influence grew to the point where they now are the third largest party in our country.

Sorry, my bad, PD isn't center-right but center-left of course, I was tired when I made my answer and mixed them up. Renzi said he's resigning as soon as the new government is decided, this is to guarantee that PD doesn't form alliances neither with the Right coalition and the M5S... LeU is a party born dead, it's lead by old politicians, they didn't meet their 6% goal and are already crumbling on themselves, I already consider their votes to be split between PD and M5S in the next elections (assuming M5S will still be a thing).

About EMA we're doing our best to get it in Milan, it's crazy that such a decision was taken by a coin-toss, even after multiple ties.

Hmmm, interesting stuff. I feel as a (mostly) Italian American I should know more about their political system/parties, but I've realized I know next to nothing until reading this lol.

Interesting to see what sounds like yet another Trump/Brexit/Le Penn right wing populist situation popping up. I think a lot of it is just the natural swinging of the pendulum in a backlash to liberal/neoliberal politics that have dominated much of the West more or less for several decades, along with the increase of immigration spurring a greater increase of this.

Umm... Freudian slip? You misunderstood my point re: LeU, their recent result is unimpressive but I was exactly discussing the ex-PD dissidents returning to post-Renzi PD, conforming with your own scenario of "LeU crumbling and vote splitting to support PD in next election", via PD making accommodations to facilitate that. Renzi policy seen as popular failing (why he is leaving) plausibly opens window for policy shift, and while PD could continue in same basic vein (which Renzi seems intent on ensuring, hardly a humble renunciation), it seems plausible a new policy direction could also coincidentally mend the divorce he triggered.

Or not, but with ALL of PD not being needed for majority coalition with M5S (who only need ~10% more), an alternate scenario with PD refusing to accommodate to dissidents/M5S is ~1/3 of PD leaving to join with LeU and 5* alliance. Regardless of that, the question is what neo-Renzi PD see as viable path, about only option remaining is joining Forza and Lega and calling it center-right as long as they exclude Brothers/Pound. Or maybe no problem with them, MSM happily calls them "center-right alliance", like they shrug at fascists in Baltics, Ukraine, Bulgarian government... Who cares, if they are NATO-strong and enact right liberal reforms? (OFC being rude to a German Green is beyond the pale)

Anyhow, so what is alternate scenario if no coalition is possible now? I believe even temporary government with new elections needs parliamentary basis, so what will that be? Minority government theory depends on both ruling minority and outside support both finding it in their interests.  Not sure if M5S would take deal that is calculated to be against it's interests... With itself now open to coalition but others rejecting it, it can leave culpability to others for refusing coalition and finish with system/anti-system dichotomy.

As far as EMA, of course Dutch won by same process anybody else could have, but it seems dubious to force malfunctional situation on agency already facing troubles of relocation if the claims which supported win end up being untrue. Not personally familiar with all bureaucracy involved, but I get feeling it can't just be given to Milan by vote, but instead a technical process could be voted allowing Dutch one final chance to fulfill the requirements and claims, but if there isn't clarity soon don't wait until Brexit for "surprise", default to Milan so req's are fulfilled smoothly without risk.

Speaking as one myself, (US)Americans are just blatantly ignorant about anything political, internationally or otherwise.

I think it's telling the self-described PD supporter (Luke888) calls them "the left" while simultaneously calling them center-right.
"let's pretend and call things by something else than it really is because it makes it easier to rationalize buying into status quo"
sums up election for PD, and why nobody trusts them because... obviously. (not attacking Luke888 here, honesty is good)

With Renzi quitting (who opposed M5S coalition, and facilitated consolidation of PD into liberal center-right vehicle more
comfortable with Macron's En Marche and Spain's Ciudadanos, precipitating exit from PD of "real" center-left socialists)
that leaves M5S + PD coalition as most likely outcome by what I understand, exactly what M5S' Di Maio openly called for.
I wonder if this post-Renzi PD would change enough to bring back the anti-Renzi dissidents who found their way to LeU.

I recall reading interview with center-right supporter who shifted from supporting FI to voting for PD solely because of
dislike for Lega (and probably their overt fascist electoral allies), which makes PD's poor showing all the more spectacular,
if even with support from that sector one could consider that guy representative of, they still had horrible end result.
Which is really the norm for liberal center-right, there is no significant popular base for it, and cases of their popularity
like Spain's Ciudadanos swing on tangential issues (Catalonia, anti-corruption sentiment vs PP while C's never in power),
or of course, to use the famous comparison, the Nazis' own leverage of nationalist hate to cover for privatization policy.

Then it's hilarious to see all the non-Italian "Atlantic Council" crowd get hyped over "Russia" angle while
Italians across political spectrum largely couldn't care less and would prefer constructive friendly relations.
Of course, de facto, Italian governments have caved in to support Russia sanctions, just as they caved in to
allow NATO to bomb and overthrow Libya using Italian territory, despite good Italian relations with Qadafi,
and the obviously apparent negative repurcussions Italy has felt since the war (likewise for NATO war vs Syria).

Meanwhile we get standard "Russia backs far-right" BS ignoring how happy NATO is to deal with far-right
whether in Baltics, Ukraine or Bulgaria where government includes fascists solely to keep out "pro-Russia" socialists.
(same fascists previously cast as "pro-Russia" in NATO-strong circles, but when they're useful, no complaints)
Of course same circles tended to complain of things like good relations of Schroder (German SPD) with Russia,
which is as mainstream center-left as you can get, almost like they make up scare propaganda to suit their needs.

Anyways, while thread is on Italy, is there any chance they get the EU Medicine Agency returned to Milan?
Seems to me if Dutch aren't compliant by a certain date leading up to Brexit deadline, it seems reasonable
Milan be substituted, being as it equally reached final round (only losing by coin-toss) and fulfills all needs 100%.