| Ka-pi96 said: I can only hope they did that solely for clicks. Otherwise... WTF? Complaining about a historic game being historically accurate is about as retarded as it gets! |
There was actually a full explanation of why this may not have been historically accurate... However, the OP chose to cut most of that part.
Polygon, Kotaku and EG - holy trinity of Social Justice Wankers.
Eurogamer has always been crap. I stopped taking their reviews seriously with their God of War: Ghost of Sparta review.
You guys should take a look at their list of best games of 2017, its hilariously bad.
Ka-pi96 said:
You mean that load of tosh that basically says "you don't know, it might have been like this"? Yeah, and the Earth is flat... |
"We know of African kings in Constantinople on pilgrimage to Spain; we know of black Moors in Spain; we know of extensive travel of Jews from the courts of Cordoba and Damascus; we also know of black people in large cities in Germany," the historian, Sean Miller, tells me. Czech cities Olomouc and Prague were on the famous Silk Road which facilitated the trade of goods all over the world. If you plot a line between them, it runs directly through the area recreated in Kingdom Come.
That's the part that was omitted from the OP. I'm not a historian, so I can't speak to the validity, but the actual argument was much more than "you don't know, it might have been like this?" Although, the OP cherry picked parts of the review to make it seem like that.
but isn't it based on Medieval era Europe? why would they need POCs to appropriate white culture?
DonFerrari said:
Owwww how could I forget of the vikings who originated from Peru or Texas... how silly of me, please pardon me.
And you dare preach to me just above =p |
He was clearly joking sarcastically.
RolStoppable said:
Indeed, it doesn't make sense. I was curious and looked up the review and here is the uncut version that I found: When Kingdom Come does succeed, it's peerless. The Elder Scrolls and The Witcher can feel flimsy next to the sophisticated systems and heft of history on show here.
But there's also a big problem. There are no people of colour in the game beyond people from the Cuman tribe, a Turkic people from the Eurasian Steppe. The question is, should there be? https://www.resetera.com/threads/separating-games-from-their-creators-kingdom-come-deliverance.17250/">The game's makers say they've done years of research and found no conclusive proof there should be, but a historian I spoke to, who specialises in the area, disagrees.
"We know of African kings in Constantinople on pilgrimage to Spain; we know of black Moors in Spain; we know of extensive travel of Jews from the courts of Cordoba and Damascus; we also know of black people in large cities in Germany," the historian, Sean Miller, tells me. Czech cities Olomouc and Prague were on the famous Silk Road which facilitated the trade of goods all over the world. If you plot a line between them, it runs directly through the area recreated in Kingdom Come. "You just can't know nobody got sick and stayed a longer time," he says. "What if a group of black Africans came through and stayed at an inn and someone got pregnant? Even one night is enough for a pregnancy."
It's not conclusive proof but it's readily available doubt to undermine Warhorse's interpretation. What muddies the water further is whose interpretation it overridingly is: creative director, writer and Warhorse co-founder Daniel Vavra's. He has been a vocal supporter of GamerGate and involved in antagonistic exchanges on Twitter (collected in https://www.resetera.com/threads/separating-games-from-their-creators-kingdom-come-deliverance.17250/page-2%23post-3450110">a ResetEra thread). More recently, he wore the same T-shirt depicting an album cover by the band Burzum every day at Gamescom 2017 - a very visible time for him and his game. Burzum is the work of one man: Varg Vikernes, a convicted murderer and outspoken voice on racial purity and supremacy. He even identified as a Nazi for a while.
This isn't to say Kingdom Come: Deliverance is a hotbed of racism, because it isn't. The Turkic Cumans speak a different language and are a hostile enemy, which seems like a limited portrayal but no less so than any other war game I can think of. Then again, I'm white, so maybe I've missed things. And racism can take many forms, one of them being exclusion.
More apparent to me was the back-slapping laddishness revolving around bedding women. I'm pursuing a love story over here, while over there bedding a noble and having one-night stands. That's in addition to my Troubadour perk which makes me even more irresistible to women and lets me use the "bathwenches" for free, which ties into a key mechanic of keeping yourself clean and patched up. It also means I get the Alpha Male buff (+2 to Charisma) because I've been satisfied and apparently it shows. It literally says that. The game's Codex even feels the need to describe the ideal woman of the time: "a thin, pale woman with long blonde hair, small rounded breasts, relatively narrow hips and a narrow waist".
All of which means that a shadow lingers over Kingdom Come: Deliverance. Instead of challenging the Dark Age it reinterprets 615 years later, the game seems to delight in it. Instead of seeing notes in the margin of a history book, we get what feels like a glossy pamphlet advertising an escape into an oddly romanticised past. And it's that, ultimately, which makes me too uneasy about Warhorse's work to be able to recommend it.
So the reason why it doesn't make sense is not because the historian is a complete idiot, but because the original poster provided selective quotes to misrepresent the review. That doesn't mean that putting calls for diversity into reviews is a practice that should be encouraged, but merely that the situation isn't as deplorable as it was depicted in this thread. |
I provided a link with the full review. I can't copy the whole review so anyone could be accused of "selective editing" if they try use an article in their thread. I chose the most relevant parts of the review to my thread. Even with everything the one historian he could find that agrees with him, brought up, his theory banked entirely on "if one got sick, stayed at inn, knocked up girl/got pregnant" . That's just alot of wishful.
SuperNova said:
And I'm not debating that. In fact I said, it's their choice, it's fine. I just pointed out that if diversity was important to this dev they could have kept the time period, european setting and historic accuracy while still having diverse characters. 'Historic accuracy' is not the right argument here. It's 'We didn't want to.' And that's fine. |
Not really. I doubt that they would have a foreigner do everything he did. Again, historical accuracy.
JWeinCom said:
There was actually a full explanation of why this may not have been historically accurate... However, the OP chose to cut most of that part. |
I posted a link to the review so I wasn't hiding anything. Sorry, I assumed that anyone would read the review considering my wording in the headline. If they were too lazy to read it, I don't give one fuck about it. I can't control what people do.
The game is historically accurate as far as we know. It's not proven otherwise. I'm gonna assume that the dev is right because they put alot more research into that area and time period since they modeled the entire game off of it compared to a triggered reviewer who likely kept asking historians til he got one who said it's a possibility of a possibility of a possibility.
It's still hard to find people of colour in some parts of Europe in 2018 and you can walk weeks around there without seeing even one of them but hey, just let him believe that you should see them in a game which takes place in such an area but 600 years ago.
Aeolus451 said:
I posted a link to the review so I wasn't hiding anything. Sorry, I assumed that anyone would read the review considering my wording in the headline. If they were too lazy to read it, I don't give one fuck about it. I can't control what people do. The game is historically accurate as far as we know. It's not proven otherwise. I'm gonna assume that the dev is right because they put alot more research into that area and time period since they modeled the entire game off of it compared to a triggered reviewer who likely kept asking historians til he got one who said it's a possibility of a possibility of a possibility. |
You can't control what other people do, but you can control what you present. You could have easily included the full text of the historian's comments. Instead You chose to present the information in a clearly biased fashion.
I'm not going to comment on how historically accurate the game is, because I have basically no knowledge of the ethnic makeup of Europe hundreds of years ago.
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