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Forums - Politics Discussion - The sjw review by eurogamer on Kingdom Come: Deliverance

SuperNova on 23 February 2018
DonFerrari said:
SuperNova said:

Because people where saying that the they couldn't possibly include diversity because of 'historic accurary'. I pointed out that if they had wanted to tell a diverse, historically accurate story in 14th century europe, they could and would have prioritized that. But they cared about other things, like portraying the area they are from, more. I was trying to be clear a bout the fact that that is not a moral judgement of the devs on my part. I simply do not like the logical error in the reasoning.

That is what I have been saying this entire time.

On a side note: Why would you think someone wanting to tell a divese story is on an agenda, while someone wanting to tell a homogenous story isn't anyways? Don't people usually just make games about topics they are passionate about and that they find interesting? In it's own way isn't that desire for expression pretty much the agenda of any given game? Why this extreme defensiveness?

Someone asked: 'Why isn't this game more diverse?' and the answer pretty obviously is: 'Because we were prioritizing other things in our vision for the game, like an historically accurate portrayal of our home stretch of land in 1400.' Everyone should be good at this point.

Someone wants to make a historically accurate, fun game about a white lady pirate in 14th century europe? Cool. Someone wants to make a historically accurate, fun game about a black danish nobleman? Cool. Someone wants to make a historically accurate, fun game about a  white son of a blacksmith turned warrior? Cool. Someone makes a game that I think has unused potential? Ok, I'll put in the research and pitch something I'm passionate about. Maybe the devs will take it into consideration next time because they think it's a cool idea, or maybe I'll make my own game about it.

It's ok to analyze and criticize media and it's ok to express your opinion about it and voice your concerns and wishes. It's also ok for a creator to either take or disregard that criticism and create whatever they want.

1st paragraph, if that was what you meant then I stand corrected, if it was their interest (and not external pressure/censorship) sure they could have a story on Europe middle age that featured black people among NPCs depending on where they decided to locate and research. Still if they want to tell the story about where they are from and be historically accurate, not adding black people shouldn't become an issue like the reviewer made.

If someone decides to pick a story just so they can have only white people sure you can infer that an agenda is at play, which didn't seem to be the case. Same way if someone pick a story just to have diversity it's an agenda, while if they just chose a theme they like and diversity was a natural outcome it was an agenda driven choice.

Sorry it isn't ok to pitch fork against developers and complain "why didn't you made a game about a pirate lady instead of this" or "why is history correctness more important than my need of feeling included at all cost". It is ok though to buy products you like and avoid the ones you don't like and since this game isn't make a point to be racist or misogynist it isn't ok to attack it for its choices.

First two paragraphs. We're absolutely in agreement.

Last paragraph. I didn't say it was ok to 'pitchfork' anyone. I'd never condone such a thing. I said criticism is ok. Criticism does not equal to pitchforking, even if it includes questions about diversity. But it DOES include accepting an honest anwswer from the creator and most importantly does NOT include forcing the creator to censor or change. I'd never want that. Obviously criticism should be respectfully phrased and somewhat relevant to the thing you're giving critique. It should be up to the creator to take it or leave it. That's the way I see it anyways.

With your two hypothetical questions, facetious phrasing or not, the same answer applies as before: 'Because we were prioritizing other things in our vision for the game, like an historically accurate portrayal of our home stretch of land in 1400.' People should be able to accept that.

Like you say blatantly racist or mysogynistic content is a diffrent beast, but that's not the case here.

And as I understand from the article in this specific case, that is exactly what the reviewer tries to rather clumsily to clear up here. The reviewer brings the issue up, because one of the developers has apparently been associated with neo-nazism and she was adressing the possible concern that there might be racist elements in the game because of that and concludes that there  aren't. I don't agree with his alternative historical expert, but at least the reviewer consulted with someone and didn't just put out an opinion piece with zero additional research put in.



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EnricoPallazzo on 23 February 2018

We are living in crazy days when if you make a game about feudal japan era full of black people, white people, native americans and transgender men/women you get praised by the critics and gamers for being inclusive instead of historically accurate.



DonFerrari on 23 February 2018
SuperNova said:
DonFerrari said:

1st paragraph, if that was what you meant then I stand corrected, if it was their interest (and not external pressure/censorship) sure they could have a story on Europe middle age that featured black people among NPCs depending on where they decided to locate and research. Still if they want to tell the story about where they are from and be historically accurate, not adding black people shouldn't become an issue like the reviewer made.

If someone decides to pick a story just so they can have only white people sure you can infer that an agenda is at play, which didn't seem to be the case. Same way if someone pick a story just to have diversity it's an agenda, while if they just chose a theme they like and diversity was a natural outcome it was an agenda driven choice.

Sorry it isn't ok to pitch fork against developers and complain "why didn't you made a game about a pirate lady instead of this" or "why is history correctness more important than my need of feeling included at all cost". It is ok though to buy products you like and avoid the ones you don't like and since this game isn't make a point to be racist or misogynist it isn't ok to attack it for its choices.

First two paragraphs. We're absolutely in agreement.

Last paragraph. I didn't say it was ok to 'pitchfork' anyone. I'd never condone such a thing. I said criticism is ok. Criticism does not equal to pitchforking, even if it includes questions about diversity. But it DOES include accepting an honest anwswer from the creator and most importantly does NOT include forcing the creator to censor or change. I'd never want that. Obviously criticism should be respectfully phrased and somewhat relevant to the thing you're giving critique. It should be up to the creator to take it or leave it. That's the way I see it anyways.

With your two hypothetical questions, facetious phrasing or not, the same answer applies as before: 'Because we were prioritizing other things in our vision for the game, like an historically accurate portrayal of our home stretch of land in 1400.' People should be able to accept that.

Like you say blatantly racist or mysogynistic content is a diffrent beast, but that's not the case here.

And as I understand from the article in this specific case, that is exactly what the reviewer tries to rather clumsily to clear up here. The reviewer brings the issue up, because one of the developers has apparently been associated with neo-nazism and she was adressing the possible concern that there might be racist elements in the game because of that and concludes that there  aren't. I don't agree with his alternative historical expert, but at least the reviewer consulted with someone and didn't just put out an opinion piece with zero additional research put in.

1) If you are against pitchforking and pro relevant criticism we are on the same page. Unfortunately the reviewer weren't doing good/relevant criticism

2) Agreed on devs prioritizing what they think is better for their story.

3) Well the problem on her clear up on racism is that she polluted that with the "what ifs", "woman abuse (which was also unfortunately accurate)" and that the game doesn't challenge history it embraces it and she doesn't recommend the game because of it, insinuating that if the game had lied to itself to pander to her wishes of skipping precision to give her what she wants she would applaud.

And yes, it's good that she at least tried to find some specialist information, but the way she done it comes to "a little knowledge is dangerous", because since she can use an argument from authority it is worse than she just said she think there could be a possibility of black people living there. That coupled with single (anonymous right?) source and possible clipping of content makes it a research that was made just to validate a point and possibly ignore all that contradicted it, that isn't good.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Slimebeast on 23 February 2018

So this hysterical SJW insanity has infested Eurogamer now. Time to avoid it just like Kotaku and Polygon. It's sad, because Eurogamer was a quality gaming site until now.

I really hate what's happening in our time where morals are upside down, and it's sad that white people are about to become minorities in our own lands because of these pathetic beta leftists. But what's at least somewhat comforting is that with the mass influx of foreigners, traditional values and tribalism is guaranteed to make a strong comeback and these treacherous white knights will lose their influense and power.

Kingdom Come at least is by far the best game of 2018 if not the last decade even. I feel like Oblivion 2006 all over again. So unique, so fantastic.

 

Moderated ~ CGI

Last edited by CGI-Quality - on 24 February 2018

Slimebeast on 23 February 2018
RolStoppable said:
bananaking21 said:
" The game's makerssay they've done years of research and found no conclusive proof there should be"

his "specialist" says:
""You just can't know nobody got sick and stayed a longer time," he says. "What if a group of black Africans came through and stayed at an inn and someone got pregnant? Even one night is enough for a pregnancy."

thats not conclusive proof you fucking dipshit. its one thing trying to make a race issue where there is none, but its another being a moron while trying to do so.

Indeed, it doesn't make sense. I was curious and looked up the review and here is the uncut version that I found:

When Kingdom Come does succeed, it's peerless. The Elder Scrolls and The Witcher can feel flimsy next to the sophisticated systems and heft of history on show here.

But there's also a big problem. There are no people of colour in the game beyond people from the Cuman tribe, a Turkic people from the Eurasian Steppe. The question is, should there be? https://www.resetera.com/threads/separating-games-from-their-creators-kingdom-come-deliverance.17250/">The game's makers say they've done years of research and found no conclusive proof there should be, but a historian I spoke to, who specialises in the area, disagrees.

"We know of African kings in Constantinople on pilgrimage to Spain; we know of black Moors in Spain; we know of extensive travel of Jews from the courts of Cordoba and Damascus; we also know of black people in large cities in Germany," the historian, Sean Miller, tells me. Czech cities Olomouc and Prague were on the famous Silk Road which facilitated the trade of goods all over the world. If you plot a line between them, it runs directly through the area recreated in Kingdom Come. "You just can't know nobody got sick and stayed a longer time," he says. "What if a group of black Africans came through and stayed at an inn and someone got pregnant? Even one night is enough for a pregnancy."

It's not conclusive proof but it's readily available doubt to undermine Warhorse's interpretation. What muddies the water further is whose interpretation it overridingly is: creative director, writer and Warhorse co-founder Daniel Vavra's. He has been a vocal supporter of GamerGate and involved in antagonistic exchanges on Twitter (collected in https://www.resetera.com/threads/separating-games-from-their-creators-kingdom-come-deliverance.17250/page-2%23post-3450110">a ResetEra thread). More recently, he wore the same T-shirt depicting an album cover by the band Burzum every day at Gamescom 2017 - a very visible time for him and his game. Burzum is the work of one man: Varg Vikernes, a convicted murderer and outspoken voice on racial purity and supremacy. He even identified as a Nazi for a while.

This isn't to say Kingdom Come: Deliverance is a hotbed of racism, because it isn't. The Turkic Cumans speak a different language and are a hostile enemy, which seems like a limited portrayal but no less so than any other war game I can think of. Then again, I'm white, so maybe I've missed things. And racism can take many forms, one of them being exclusion.

More apparent to me was the back-slapping laddishness revolving around bedding women. I'm pursuing a love story over here, while over there bedding a noble and having one-night stands. That's in addition to my Troubadour perk which makes me even more irresistible to women and lets me use the "bathwenches" for free, which ties into a key mechanic of keeping yourself clean and patched up. It also means I get the Alpha Male buff (+2 to Charisma) because I've been satisfied and apparently it shows. It literally says that. The game's Codex even feels the need to describe the ideal woman of the time: "a thin, pale woman with long blonde hair, small rounded breasts, relatively narrow hips and a narrow waist".

All of which means that a shadow lingers over Kingdom Come: Deliverance. Instead of challenging the Dark Age it reinterprets 615 years later, the game seems to delight in it. Instead of seeing notes in the margin of a history book, we get what feels like a glossy pamphlet advertising an escape into an oddly romanticised past. And it's that, ultimately, which makes me too uneasy about Warhorse's work to be able to recommend it.

So the reason why it doesn't make sense is not because the historian is a complete idiot, but because the original poster provided selective quotes to misrepresent the review. That doesn't mean that putting calls for diversity into reviews is a practice that should be encouraged, but merely that the situation isn't as deplorable as it was depicted in this thread.

But the full review is even worse. How can he make an issue about Vavra wearing a Burzum shirt? A still popular black metal band.

Had the developer instead worn a shirt with a disgusting sickle and a hammer on it, the reviewer wouldn't have uttered a word. What a shameless hypocrite. These kind of people are perverse and dangerous.



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VGPolyglot on 23 February 2018
Slimebeast said:

But the full review is even worse. How can he make an issue about Vavra wearing a Burzum shirt? A still popular black metal band.

Had the developer instead worn a shirt with a disgusting sickle and a hammer on it, the reviewer wouldn't have uttered a word. What a shameless hypocrite. These kind of people are perverse and dangerous.

I fail to see how hammers and sickles are disgusting, they are tools used for work.



Slimebeast on 23 February 2018
VGPolyglot said:
Slimebeast said:

But the full review is even worse. How can he make an issue about Vavra wearing a Burzum shirt? A still popular black metal band.

Had the developer instead worn a shirt with a disgusting sickle and a hammer on it, the reviewer wouldn't have uttered a word. What a shameless hypocrite. These kind of people are perverse and dangerous.

I fail to see how hammers and sickles are disgusting, they are tools used for work.

lol yeah

And you have the flag of China (or is it the Soviet union?) in your profile pic lol



Aeolus451 on 23 February 2018
Slimebeast said:
VGPolyglot said:

I fail to see how hammers and sickles are disgusting, they are tools used for work.

lol yeah

And you have the flag of China (or is it the Soviet union?) in your profile pic lol

Yeah, he's a socialist but he's good people. 😽



Errorist76 on 23 February 2018
Slimebeast said:


I really hate what's happening in our time where morals are upside down, and it's sad that white people are about to become minorities in our own lands because of these pathetic beta leftists. But what's at least somewhat comforting is that with the mass influx of foreigners, traditional values and tribalism is guaranteed to make a strong comeback and these treacherous white knights will lose their influense and power.

Some of you people really make my brain hurt...much more than any SJW ever could. Your way of thinking is a much bigger threat to our way of life than any “foreigner” could ever be.



Aeolus451 on 23 February 2018
John2290 said:
Anyone got a thread up on ResetEra banning users for talking positively about the games director? I would but my phone is only showing me 'recent' threads from 2013 atm so I can't be sure I won't be duping.

Ask a mod if it's okay. Digging thru old threads is a pain.