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Forums - Politics Discussion - What is it going to take to restart the US Government after the shutdown, and what does it all mean?

Trumpstyle said:
CosmicSex said:

This happened because Trump torpedoed the first bipartisan plan before attempting to torpedo the GOP plan which actually made it through.  This didn't have to happen.  He asked congress to come up with a plan, they did, and then he shot it down.  Trump made it so that Republicans couldn't work out a deal with the dems.  

This is a misconception I seen several people saying now on this thread. It wasn't really a "bipartisan" deal, it was negotiated by 3 republicans Cory gardner, Lindsey graham and Jeff flake. They are really democrats when it comes to immigration issues. I don't think there was a single republican that liked their bill except themself.

Congress didn't really come with a bipartisan bill. The bill didn't have the support from paul ryan and neither mitch mcconnell. Than Trump torpedoed the bill.

Which deal are you talking about... he nearly killed them both.  Remember it was Republican who where snapping because he came out against somethingthey supported and he labeled it incorrectly... seemingly purposefully...the bill that all the GOP supported... at the last freaking moment.  The 6 months of protection to work out a deal for the undocumented Americans vs the 30 days Trump sighted when he said the GOP plan wasn't good enough... enough though you can't say anything to make him correct because he was wrong. 

The White House later retracted his comments but the point is that the GOP sometimes feel more apprehensive to make a move because they can be sure what he wants and are willing to produce anything he will actually sigh as suggested by Mitch.



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DonFerrari said:
Final-Fan said:

The thing is, in 2013 Republicans were specifically gunning for a shutdown.  They didn't want to look for a deal, they wanted to look for a showdown.  Their demand to kill Obamacare was much different from the Democrats' demand about DACA:  it's on a whole different order of magnitude.  It's closer to if the Democrats said "we are going to shut down everything unless you completely repeal the tax bill you just passed".  In fact, it's arguable that the Republicans back then deliberately picked an issue they knew the Democrats could never give in on to stage the battle over. 

On another note, since you are trying to look for parallels between that shutdown and this one, the Republican position in both cases was to change the status quo, while the Democratic position in both cases was to keep the status quo. 

Strange to say the conservatives are the ones wanting to change the status quo while the progressives are the one wanting to keep it.

It is a pretty interesting bit of irony.  Obviously that's not the case all of the time, but it was in both of the last two government shutdowns. 

Of course, you could say that the conservatives wanted to "return to a previous status quo"; but the progressives were defending the status quo of the time that the event occurred.  Something had changed a few years ago that they liked and they wanted to keep it, and conservatives didn't like it and wanted to get rid of it. 



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CosmicSex said:
Trumpstyle said:

This is a misconception I seen several people saying now on this thread. It wasn't really a "bipartisan" deal, it was negotiated by 3 republicans Cory gardner, Lindsey graham and Jeff flake. They are really democrats when it comes to immigration issues. I don't think there was a single republican that liked their bill except themself.

Congress didn't really come with a bipartisan bill. The bill didn't have the support from paul ryan and neither mitch mcconnell. Than Trump torpedoed the bill.

Which deal are you talking about... he nearly killed them both.  Remember it was Republican who where snapping because he came out against somethingthey supported and he labeled it incorrectly... seemingly purposefully...the bill that all the GOP supported... at the last freaking moment.  The 6 months of protection to work out a deal for the undocumented Americans vs the 30 days Trump sighted when he said the GOP plan wasn't good enough... enough though you can't say anything to make him correct because he was wrong. 

The White House later retracted his comments but the point is that the GOP sometimes feel more apprehensive to make a move because they can be sure what he wants and are willing to produce anything he will actually sigh as suggested by Mitch.

I actually wish the Republicans in Congress would just do what they want and not worry about what Trump wants.  See if he really uses that veto pen and then deal with it if it happens.  At least then people can't blame Congress for being the reason nothing gets done. 



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Final-Fan said:
DarthVolod said:

In 2013 the Republicans were in majority of just the house while democrats held senate as well as the presidency. The original point I was responding to was the idea that 2018 Republican majority senate / house / president are supposed to capitulate to the demands of senate democrats in regards to DACA and chain migration / etc.

If the ruling party is supposed to just roll over and work it out with the opposition then why didn't democrats in 2013 who controlled the executive and half of the legislative branches of government care about republican demands? Ultimately, they were the ones in charge since Obama could just veto things at the end of the line. 

Before going into the midterm republicans need more victories ... a border wall (Trump's key campaign promise no less) and an end to chain migration would be another win along side the tax reform that already passed. Giving the democrats DACA for nothing in return would be a terrible idea. 

The thing is, in 2013 Republicans were specifically gunning for a shutdown.  They didn't want to look for a deal, they wanted to look for a showdown.  Their demand to kill Obamacare was much different from the Democrats' demand about DACA:  it's on a whole different order of magnitude.  It's closer to if the Democrats said "we are going to shut down everything unless you completely repeal the tax bill you just passed".  In fact, it's arguable that the Republicans back then deliberately picked an issue they knew the Democrats could never give in on to stage the battle over. 

On another note, since you are trying to look for parallels between that shutdown and this one, the Republican position in both cases was to change the status quo, while the Democratic position in both cases was to keep the status quo. 

Democrats were not gunning for a shutdown now? They have been saying since at least September when DACA was rescinded that they would fight on this... the reason why they didn't fight on the tax bill is because they had no real power to; they do have leverage on the budget though. Democrats drew a line in the sand on this one the same way the Republicans did before. You can argue about the "magnitude" of it but principle is the same. Immigration is Trump's defining issue and the border wall was his signature campaign promise ... it is a legacy issue just like the ACA is really the only remaining legacy of Obama. 

Change the status quo? the ACA was less than 3 years old in 2013 and not nearly fully phased in. DACA is a bit older (2012) ... still it was created by executive action and Trump removed it in the same fashion ... this was more or less how Obama implemented everything he did. Satisfying solution for both parties would be some path to amnesty for Dreamers and all of the border protection that Republicans want (wall, end chain migration, diversity lottery etc). Changes to status quo is kind of a weird argument too ... it is all kind of relative isn't it? The ACA went against status quo and the original 2001 DREAM act went against status quo too...



Final-Fan said:
DonFerrari said:

Strange to say the conservatives are the ones wanting to change the status quo while the progressives are the one wanting to keep it.

It is a pretty interesting bit of irony.  Obviously that's not the case all of the time, but it was in both of the last two government shutdowns. 

Of course, you could say that the conservatives wanted to "return to a previous status quo"; but the progressives were defending the status quo of the time that the event occurred.  Something had changed a few years ago that they liked and they wanted to keep it, and conservatives didn't like it and wanted to get rid of it. 

Yes I know... some would say the democrats now are conservatives and the republicans are regressivists =p



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DarthVolod said:
Final-Fan said:

The thing is, in 2013 Republicans were specifically gunning for a shutdown.  They didn't want to look for a deal, they wanted to look for a showdown.  Their demand to kill Obamacare was much different from the Democrats' demand about DACA:  it's on a whole different order of magnitude.  It's closer to if the Democrats said "we are going to shut down everything unless you completely repeal the tax bill you just passed".  In fact, it's arguable that the Republicans back then deliberately picked an issue they knew the Democrats could never give in on to stage the battle over. 

On another note, since you are trying to look for parallels between that shutdown and this one, the Republican position in both cases was to change the status quo, while the Democratic position in both cases was to keep the status quo. 

Democrats were not gunning for a shutdown now? They have been saying since at least September when DACA was rescinded that they would fight on this... the reason why they didn't fight on the tax bill is because they had no real power to; they do have leverage on the budget though. Democrats drew a line in the sand on this one the same way the Republicans did before. You can argue about the "magnitude" of it but principle is the same. Immigration is Trump's defining issue and the border wall was his signature campaign promise ... it is a legacy issue just like the ACA is really the only remaining legacy of Obama. 

Change the status quo? the ACA was less than 3 years old in 2013 and not nearly fully phased in. DACA is a bit older (2012) ... still it was created by executive action and Trump removed it in the same fashion ... this was more or less how Obama implemented everything he did. Satisfying solution for both parties would be some path to amnesty for Dreamers and all of the border protection that Republicans want (wall, end chain migration, diversity lottery etc). Changes to status quo is kind of a weird argument too ... it is all kind of relative isn't it? The ACA went against status quo and the original 2001 DREAM act went against status quo too...

Republicans in 2013:  "I'm almost giddy thinking about a government shutdown next year. I cannot wait"

Find me an equivalent quote from Democrats in 2017-18. 



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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

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Final-Fan said:
DarthVolod said:

Democrats were not gunning for a shutdown now? They have been saying since at least September when DACA was rescinded that they would fight on this... the reason why they didn't fight on the tax bill is because they had no real power to; they do have leverage on the budget though. Democrats drew a line in the sand on this one the same way the Republicans did before. You can argue about the "magnitude" of it but principle is the same. Immigration is Trump's defining issue and the border wall was his signature campaign promise ... it is a legacy issue just like the ACA is really the only remaining legacy of Obama. 

Change the status quo? the ACA was less than 3 years old in 2013 and not nearly fully phased in. DACA is a bit older (2012) ... still it was created by executive action and Trump removed it in the same fashion ... this was more or less how Obama implemented everything he did. Satisfying solution for both parties would be some path to amnesty for Dreamers and all of the border protection that Republicans want (wall, end chain migration, diversity lottery etc). Changes to status quo is kind of a weird argument too ... it is all kind of relative isn't it? The ACA went against status quo and the original 2001 DREAM act went against status quo too...

Republicans in 2013:  "I'm almost giddy thinking about a government shutdown next year. I cannot wait"

Find me an equivalent quote from Democrats in 2017-18. 

Look it up. They've said it multiple times.



Aeolus451 said:
Final-Fan said:

Republicans in 2013:  "I'm almost giddy thinking about a government shutdown next year. I cannot wait"

Find me an equivalent quote from Democrats in 2017-18. 

Look it up. They've said it multiple times.

They have said words to the effect of, "we are super happy about having this showdown, and it's a great day for America and our agenda"?  Evidence please.

I mean, the simple fact that they caved in so quickly suggests that they weren't as enthusiastic about the idea as the Republicans were back then. 



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Final-Fan said:
Aeolus451 said:

Look it up. They've said it multiple times.

They have said words to the effect of, "we are super happy about having this showdown, and it's a great day for America and our agenda"?  Evidence please.

I mean, the simple fact that they caved in so quickly suggests that they weren't as enthusiastic about the idea as the Republicans were back then. 

https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/chuck-schumers-daca-dilemma comments by a lot of dems on not voting unless they get what they want before the shutdown.

 

Here's a cnn reporter grilling a den senator over them not voting and causing the shutdown. Also, she plays a clip of schumer making some very ironic comments in 2013. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q2FG2RJKgOI

Republicans voted to fund gov, dems wouldn't vote for it unless daca was included. Republicans didn't have enough votes to pass it by themselves. It was plain as day who tried the "give us this or else" ploy and lost.

 



Aeolus451 said:
Final-Fan said:

They have said words to the effect of, "we are super happy about having this showdown, and it's a great day for America and our agenda"?  Evidence please.

I mean, the simple fact that they caved in so quickly suggests that they weren't as enthusiastic about the idea as the Republicans were back then. 

https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/chuck-schumers-daca-dilemma comments by a lot of dems on not voting unless they get what they want before the shutdown.

 

Here's a cnn reporter grilling a den senator over them not voting and causing the shutdown. Also, she plays a clip of schumer making some very ironic comments in 2013. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q2FG2RJKgOI

Republicans voted to fund gov, dems wouldn't vote for it unless daca was included. Republicans didn't have enough votes to pass it by themselves. It was plain as day who tried the "give us this or else" ploy and lost.

 

I always love how much the "loving left" is out of touch with reality... in here they say the right is fascist, haters, explorators of the poor, violent, etc... but when they go and discourse they want to kill all of them. Certainly with much love.



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