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Forums - Politics Discussion - What is it going to take to restart the US Government after the shutdown, and what does it all mean?

DonFerrari said:
Aeolus451 said:

https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/chuck-schumers-daca-dilemma comments by a lot of dems on not voting unless they get what they want before the shutdown.

 

Here's a cnn reporter grilling a den senator over them not voting and causing the shutdown. Also, she plays a clip of schumer making some very ironic comments in 2013. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q2FG2RJKgOI

Republicans voted to fund gov, dems wouldn't vote for it unless daca was included. Republicans didn't have enough votes to pass it by themselves. It was plain as day who tried the "give us this or else" ploy and lost.

 

I always love how much the "loving left" is out of touch with reality... in here they say the right is fascist, haters, explorators of the poor, violent, etc... but when they go and discourse they want to kill all of them. Certainly with much love.

That reminds me of the one about the "tolerant" left. *sigh. It's the way for some of them to dehumanize and vilify the right. Makes it easier to not think about anything the right says. 



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Aeolus451 said:
DonFerrari said:

I always love how much the "loving left" is out of touch with reality... in here they say the right is fascist, haters, explorators of the poor, violent, etc... but when they go and discourse they want to kill all of them. Certainly with much love.

That reminds me of the one about the "tolerant" left. *sigh. It's the way for some of them to dehumanize and vilify the right. Makes it easier to not think about anything the right says. 

Yep... if the right is inhuman there is no issue killing them all.



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Aeolus451 said:
Final-Fan said:

They have said words to the effect of, "we are super happy about having this showdown, and it's a great day for America and our agenda"?  Evidence please.

I mean, the simple fact that they caved in so quickly suggests that they weren't as enthusiastic about the idea as the Republicans were back then. 

https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/chuck-schumers-daca-dilemma comments by a lot of dems on not voting unless they get what they want before the shutdown.

Here's a cnn reporter grilling a den senator over them not voting and causing the shutdown. Also, she plays a clip of schumer making some very ironic comments in 2013. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q2FG2RJKgOI

Republicans voted to fund gov, dems wouldn't vote for it unless daca was included. Republicans didn't have enough votes to pass it by themselves. It was plain as day who tried the "give us this or else" ploy and lost.

Your evidence completely fails to substantiate the specific claim you made that I challenged. 



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Final-Fan said:
DarthVolod said:

Democrats were not gunning for a shutdown now? They have been saying since at least September when DACA was rescinded that they would fight on this... the reason why they didn't fight on the tax bill is because they had no real power to; they do have leverage on the budget though. Democrats drew a line in the sand on this one the same way the Republicans did before. You can argue about the "magnitude" of it but principle is the same. Immigration is Trump's defining issue and the border wall was his signature campaign promise ... it is a legacy issue just like the ACA is really the only remaining legacy of Obama. 

Change the status quo? the ACA was less than 3 years old in 2013 and not nearly fully phased in. DACA is a bit older (2012) ... still it was created by executive action and Trump removed it in the same fashion ... this was more or less how Obama implemented everything he did. Satisfying solution for both parties would be some path to amnesty for Dreamers and all of the border protection that Republicans want (wall, end chain migration, diversity lottery etc). Changes to status quo is kind of a weird argument too ... it is all kind of relative isn't it? The ACA went against status quo and the original 2001 DREAM act went against status quo too...

Republicans in 2013:  "I'm almost giddy thinking about a government shutdown next year. I cannot wait"

Find me an equivalent quote from Democrats in 2017-18. 

That quote is from a blogger / radio host ... should I take everything that Stephen Colbert or Trevor Noah puts out as representative of Democrats? This will be fun...



DarthVolod said:
Final-Fan said:

Republicans in 2013:  "I'm almost giddy thinking about a government shutdown next year. I cannot wait"

Find me an equivalent quote from Democrats in 2017-18. 

That quote is from a blogger / radio host ... should I take everything that Stephen Colbert or Trevor Noah puts out as representative of Democrats? This will be fun...

That's almost a good point.  You could have had a really good conterpoint except you couldn't be satisfied with "that's not a congressperson saying that" and you had to go and compare left-leaning comedians with allegedly serious Republican bloggers.  Were you going to find a quote of them being serious? or are Democratic jokes comparable to serious Republican thought? 

But never mind.  The point you could have made still stands regardless.  Here you have a chance to actually help me out.  Michelle Bachmann said, "It's exactly what we wanted, and we got it. People will be very grateful."  She later disputed the context of the quote, which was allegedly speaking of the shutdown.  The full quote by Bachmann appears to be that she is not happy about the shutdown per se but happy about making the demand that prompted the shutdown (that she knew would prompt a shutdown). 
“This is exactly what we had hoped for. A full one year delay, a full year defunding. It is a full delay of one year of the taxes, a full delay of the funding including all the advertising. It’s exactly what we asked for and we got it. So we’re very excited. That’s why I think we can all vote.”
It's a fine distinction but a significant one.  I have not yet been able to find a transcript of the full context of the quote, but I have been able to find an audio clip; however, the person who asked for comment is very hard to hear. 
https://www.mediaite.com/tv/bachmann-denies-saying-shutdown-exactly-what-we-wanted-wapo-and-obama-misquoted-me/
Can you figure out what the full context is? 

Anyway, she wasn't the only one excited about trying to kill Obamacare, which was the cause of the shutdown.  John Culberson also reportedly said, "It's wonderful. We're 100 percent united!"



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Final-Fan said:
DarthVolod said:

That quote is from a blogger / radio host ... should I take everything that Stephen Colbert or Trevor Noah puts out as representative of Democrats? This will be fun...

That's almost a good point.  You could have had a really good conterpoint except you couldn't be satisfied with "that's not a congressperson saying that" and you had to go and compare left-leaning comedians with allegedly serious Republican bloggers.  Were you going to find a quote of them being serious? or are Democratic jokes comparable to serious Republican thought? 

But never mind.  The point you could have made still stands regardless.  Here you have a chance to actually help me out.  Michelle Bachmann said, "It's exactly what we wanted, and we got it. People will be very grateful."  She later disputed the context of the quote, which was allegedly speaking of the shutdown.  The full quote by Bachmann appears to be that she is not happy about the shutdown per se but happy about making the demand that prompted the shutdown (that she knew would prompt a shutdown). 
“This is exactly what we had hoped for. A full one year delay, a full year defunding. It is a full delay of one year of the taxes, a full delay of the funding including all the advertising. It’s exactly what we asked for and we got it. So we’re very excited. That’s why I think we can all vote.”
It's a fine distinction but a significant one.  I have not yet been able to find a transcript of the full context of the quote, but I have been able to find an audio clip; however, the person who asked for comment is very hard to hear. 
https://www.mediaite.com/tv/bachmann-denies-saying-shutdown-exactly-what-we-wanted-wapo-and-obama-misquoted-me/
Can you figure out what the full context is? 

Anyway, she wasn't the only one excited about trying to kill Obamacare, which was the cause of the shutdown.  John Culberson also reportedly said, "It's wonderful. We're 100 percent united!"

It was a great counterpoint but obviously the humor was lost on you. I was exaggerating for comedic effect ...

As for the Bachmann comment, god that is hard to hear. Is like 10 people talking over her in crowded room ... but once again context matters a lot here. Was the shutdown deliberate? Perhaps, but we won't know unless someone can dig up a recording or something somewhere that states that in context from a person in a position to actually bring about or contribute to that shut down. Was she happy about it? It seems so yes, but that is, like you said, different from being out to shut down from the start. 

In other words, I can be happy that a rival at work got fired, but there is a difference between being happy about it and actually causing that person to be fired in the first place. 

You can take Culberson's quote in many ways as well. 

We don't really know 100% for sure about the 2013 shutdown and same with the 2018 one. Only thing we know is that neither one really matter like I said. Unless someone can produce solid evidence for either case. We can speculate though and that is about it. 

 



Final-Fan said:
Aeolus451 said:

https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/chuck-schumers-daca-dilemma comments by a lot of dems on not voting unless they get what they want before the shutdown.

Here's a cnn reporter grilling a den senator over them not voting and causing the shutdown. Also, she plays a clip of schumer making some very ironic comments in 2013. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q2FG2RJKgOI

Republicans voted to fund gov, dems wouldn't vote for it unless daca was included. Republicans didn't have enough votes to pass it by themselves. It was plain as day who tried the "give us this or else" ploy and lost.

Your evidence completely fails to substantiate the specific claim you made that I challenged. 

That's just you being thick headed about this. I provided enough proof to show that dems wanted a shutdown to leverage for daca. Even a cnn reporter acknowledged it, was drilling a dem over how it was a mistake. Anyone who would take a few mins to think this over could see that it was a ploy by dems.



DarthVolod said:
Final-Fan said:

That's almost a good point.  You could have had a really good conterpoint except you couldn't be satisfied with "that's not a congressperson saying that" and you had to go and compare left-leaning comedians with allegedly serious Republican bloggers.  Were you going to find a quote of them being serious? or are Democratic jokes comparable to serious Republican thought? 

But never mind.  The point you could have made still stands regardless.  Here you have a chance to actually help me out.  Michelle Bachmann said, "It's exactly what we wanted, and we got it. People will be very grateful."  She later disputed the context of the quote, which was allegedly speaking of the shutdown.  The full quote by Bachmann appears to be that she is not happy about the shutdown per se but happy about making the demand that prompted the shutdown (that she knew would prompt a shutdown). 
“This is exactly what we had hoped for. A full one year delay, a full year defunding. It is a full delay of one year of the taxes, a full delay of the funding including all the advertising. It’s exactly what we asked for and we got it. So we’re very excited. That’s why I think we can all vote.”
It's a fine distinction but a significant one.  I have not yet been able to find a transcript of the full context of the quote, but I have been able to find an audio clip; however, the person who asked for comment is very hard to hear. 
https://www.mediaite.com/tv/bachmann-denies-saying-shutdown-exactly-what-we-wanted-wapo-and-obama-misquoted-me/
Can you figure out what the full context is? 

Anyway, she wasn't the only one excited about trying to kill Obamacare, which was the cause of the shutdown.  John Culberson also reportedly said, "It's wonderful. We're 100 percent united!"

It was a great counterpoint but obviously the humor was lost on you. I was exaggerating for comedic effect ...

As for the Bachmann comment, god that is hard to hear. Is like 10 people talking over her in crowded room ... but once again context matters a lot here. Was the shutdown deliberate? Perhaps, but we won't know unless someone can dig up a recording or something somewhere that states that in context from a person in a position to actually bring about or contribute to that shut down. Was she happy about it? It seems so yes, but that is, like you said, different from being out to shut down from the start. 

In other words, I can be happy that a rival at work got fired, but there is a difference between being happy about it and actually causing that person to be fired in the first place. 

You can take Culberson's quote in many ways as well. 

We don't really know 100% for sure about the 2013 shutdown and same with the 2018 one. Only thing we know is that neither one really matter like I said. Unless someone can produce solid evidence for either case. We can speculate though and that is about it. 

I think the fact that Democrats were provably desperate to end the shutdown while Republicans were provably willing to carry it on for weeks is pretty damn solid evidence for their relative levels of enthusiasm on the topic of the respective shutdowns.  Some Republicans were so committed to the shutdown politically that they were willing to carry on with it even without a clear policy goal in mind:  "We have to get something out of this. And I don’t know what that even is." (from the Wikipedia article cited above)



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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Aeolus451 said:
Final-Fan said:

Your evidence completely fails to substantiate the specific claim you made that I challenged. 

That's just you being thick headed about this. I provided enough proof to show that dems wanted a shutdown to leverage for daca. Even a cnn reporter acknowledged it, was drilling a dem over how it was a mistake. Anyone who would take a few mins to think this over could see that it was a ploy by dems.

Stop shifting goalposts.  Your specific claim was that there were "multiple" instances of "Democrats in 2017-18" saying the "equivalent" of "I'm almost giddy thinking about a government shutdown next year. I cannot wait".  The evidence you cited substantiates that they were willing to have a shutdown, not that they were eager to do it or happy about getting the chance to do it. 

If you want to step back from your earlier claim, and instead make a more defensible claim, then this can serve as evidence.  But it does not substantiate the claim you actually made that I challenged you on. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Final-Fan said:
DarthVolod said:

It was a great counterpoint but obviously the humor was lost on you. I was exaggerating for comedic effect ...

As for the Bachmann comment, god that is hard to hear. Is like 10 people talking over her in crowded room ... but once again context matters a lot here. Was the shutdown deliberate? Perhaps, but we won't know unless someone can dig up a recording or something somewhere that states that in context from a person in a position to actually bring about or contribute to that shut down. Was she happy about it? It seems so yes, but that is, like you said, different from being out to shut down from the start. 

In other words, I can be happy that a rival at work got fired, but there is a difference between being happy about it and actually causing that person to be fired in the first place. 

You can take Culberson's quote in many ways as well. 

We don't really know 100% for sure about the 2013 shutdown and same with the 2018 one. Only thing we know is that neither one really matter like I said. Unless someone can produce solid evidence for either case. We can speculate though and that is about it. 

I think the fact that Democrats were provably desperate to end the shutdown while Republicans were provably willing to carry it on for weeks is pretty damn solid evidence for their relative levels of enthusiasm on the topic of the respective shutdowns.  Some Republicans were so committed to the shutdown politically that they were willing to carry on with it even without a clear policy goal in mind:  "We have to get something out of this. And I don’t know what that even is." (from the Wikipedia article cited above)

So we have come full circle back to my original point. The first post I responded to (and your responded to my response) was suggesting that republicans should just roll over and acquiesce to democrats now when 5 years ago the democrats were unwilling to relent to republican concerns about the ACA during that shutdown. We can argue about if republicans in 2013 and democrats in 2018 forced shutdowns unnecessarily, but the point is that, ultimately, 2013 republicans didn't accomplish anything by shutting down the government and democrats and 2018 are not accomplishing anything either.  

If we are now going to accept as fact now that republicans were hellbent on shutting down the government in 2013 for political means (probable but not proven). Then we must also accept the fact that democrats are deliberately shutting down the government for their own political scheme of obstruction in 2018 (turning down Trumps offer to give citizenship to 5.8 million via DACA and chain migration is proof of this; this was better than anything Obama ever offered). 

If i was in the democrats shoes I would take the deal ... in their eyes they would be trading some funding for the wall and policy changes on chain migration and diversity lottery etc for roughly 5.8 million democrat voters. Seems like a good deal for them ... but they can't just hand Trump funding for his signature campaign promise either ... so I understand the tension. I am sure they would be absolutely thrilled if people were deported as well ... would be all over the media and would be a boon for them during an election year.