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Forums - Movies & TV - Is Rey from Star Wars a Mary Sue?

Tulipanzo said:
Didn't she almost crash the Falcon when she got it?
Plus, I'd say that being in denial about your parents origins because you passively accepted the main antagonists' mentality that your origin matter more than who you are is a pretty big character flaw.
Also Luke Skywalker actively disliked her coming at all, Han slowly grows to accept her, only Leia actively trusts her.

She is no more competent than Luke was, and as the de facto protagonist of the new trilogy it fits that she would be generally competent.

As far as criticism goes, not only is "being a Mary Sue" a very shallow and perfunctory criticism, it aligns with some world class charlatans and mouth breathers in the manosphere. I'd avoid it if I were you, because of the stupidity by association

She is more than ten times as competent as Luke was.



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i'll reserve my conclusions til the last moving.

they better explain her origins in some detail to explain her freakish abilities otherwise she is as people say.



 

 

Tulipanzo said:

Didn't she almost crash the Falcon when she got it?

Almost. That's the key word here. She almost did only to win against what should have been more agile and capable spacecraft seeing as how they're smaller.

Tulipanzo said:

Plus, I'd say that being in denial about your parents origins because you passively accepted the main antagonists' mentality that your origin matter more than who you are is a pretty big character flaw.

I don't see how such a denial is gonna impede her ability to get things done or win in fights.

Tulipanzo said:

Also Luke Skywalker actively disliked her coming at all, Han slowly grows to accept her, only Leia actively trusts her.

Did either of the three dislike her though?

Tulipanzo said:

She is no more competent than Luke was

Okay, no. That's nonsense.

Here's the end result of the first time Luke faced Darth Vader:

Luke was left hanging from an antenna, was missing a hand, and was in dire need of rescue.

Here's the end result of the first time Rey faced Kylo Ren:

She won.

So no, the two aren't comparable.

Tulipanzo said:

and as the de facto protagonist of the new trilogy it fits that she would be generally competent.

Rey was overly competent.

Tulipanzo said:

As far as criticism goes, not only is "being a Mary Sue" a very shallow and perfunctory criticism, it aligns with some world class charlatans and mouth breathers in the manosphere. I'd avoid it if I were you, because of the stupidity by association

I'm going to keep using it because it's short and to the point. If you don't like the adjective then how about this:

Rey is a Mary Sue overly competent to the point that credibility in her character and tension in the film are both destroyed.



Yes. And that's boring.



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John2290 said:
Can someone explain what a Mary stu, Gary stu and Marty sue are? ...Besides a threesome.

Besides 3s on google that would answer this...

A commoner that through excessive competence in a multitude of fields make the heroes win.



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John2290 said:
Can someone explain what a Mary stu, Gary stu and Marty sue are? ...Besides a threesome.

Good video on the topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CALcI-4vM8E

Funny video on the topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhrfhQbY0K8



Tulipanzo said:
Didn't she almost crash the Falcon when she got it?
Plus, I'd say that being in denial about your parents origins because you passively accepted the main antagonists' mentality that your origin matter more than who you are is a pretty big character flaw.
Also Luke Skywalker actively disliked her coming at all, Han slowly grows to accept her, only Leia actively trusts her.

She is no more competent than Luke was, and as the de facto protagonist of the new trilogy it fits that she would be generally competent.

As far as criticism goes, not only is "being a Mary Sue" a very shallow and perfunctory criticism, it aligns with some world class charlatans and mouth breathers in the manosphere. I'd avoid it if I were you, because of the stupidity by association

She also proceeded to be an absolute goddess in the MF, outmaneuvering the a handful of the most agile fighter ships in the galaxy while under planetary gravity AND lining up a perfect impossible shot (thus taking all of Finn's thunder, too).

 

If you'd ever written, your know that a personal character flaw doesn't detract from being a Mary Sue if it never actually impacts the character at critical moments.

 

Not even going to address Rey vs Luke. Seriously, educate yourself. I'm tired of going over the laundry list of reasons Rey is a Mary Sue and not Luke. Go check the first post of the thread that discusses the financials of TLJ.

 

No, it doesn't. It's legitimate criticism because it's a legitimate Mary Sue appearing in a massive franchise as the newest Protagonist. The only person looking stupid by association one trying to about legitimate criticism of a character that they, as of yet, have no debunked.

Last edited by Azuren - on 13 January 2018

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Azuren said:

Gary Stu Anakin was acceptable because he was less Gary Stu and moreso just a master at the things they decided to make him good at.

I'd argue he wouldn't fall into that trope due to the fact that he was always doomed to fall, even before his character faults started to emerge. I suppose it seems the same if you look at through the lens of Episode 1 alone, but I can only raise an eyebrow to anyone that thinks that his character was faultless throughout the prequel trilogy.

Of course, I'd argue it was terribly executed, but that's another story.



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KLAMarine said:

Yes.

She's a good fighter, she's a good mechanic, she can understand droid, she can pilot the Falcon and knows it better than Han for f***'s sake, she can use the force and overcomes Kylo Ren's mind powers for f***'s sake. She's a good shot, Han likes her, Leia likes her, Finn likes her, BB8 likes her, even Kylo f***ing Ren starts to like her and she's trusted with a mission to find Luke after barely getting to know the rebellion or whatever they're called.

Poe needs rescue from the empire or whatever it's called and Finn rescues him. Finn needs rescue from tentacles and Rey rescues him. Rey needs rescue from capture and she rescues herself.

The most I can say is she's momentarily disabled by being thrown at a tree by Kylo Ren only to get back up and beat Kylo Ren in a laser sword battle...

 

I can't see how she's not a Mary Sue.

 

On a side note, why does Rey give a s*** about the conflict between the rebellion and the empire? What's her motivation and what's stopping her from just going back to... desert planet... and waiting for her parents like before? She sort of just meanders through the plot if memory serves.

Let's start with an actual definition. For simplicity, I'm using Wiki's.

"A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment. They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience. Sometimes, the name is reserved only for women, but more often the name is used for both genders. A male can also be referred to as a Marty Sue or Gary Stu, but Mary Sue is used more commonly."

So taking what you stated in the opening post, yes that view point does fit this definition. However, is your opening statement valid or bias?

1. fighter, mechanic, speak droid, pilot falcon (better than Han).

She was orphaned on a Jakku as a very young child under the ownership of junk dealer. While its not spelled out fully in the movie, its not too hard to envision what her life would have been like. She clearly would have had a hard life and would have required to either learn how to take care of herself or be taken advantage of always. Considering when we see her she is clearly healthy, agile, able to fight, and defend herself I posit that it is obvious this life taught her how to fight. Additionally, as proven in other movies, young force wielders will use force to assist them without their knowledge. Surely this has helped her reflexes and responses as well.

Being owned by a junk dealer it's also pretty obvious that, similar to Anakin, this life allowed her time to really get to know how to be a mechanic. Clearly that is her saving grace as she uses those skills to survive. She knows technology and can repair it successfully to remain healthy as demonstrated pretty clearly in TFA.

Speaking droid. Why is this some kind of oddity? It seems pretty obvious that interacting with droids is pretty common place in SW universe. Given her life in Jakku as such, I don't see how it could be perceived she wouldn't have learned how to interact with several 'languages'. Similar to Europeans. 

The Falcon was owned by her owner. She knew it was an old "junk" ship and clearly along with her already demonstrated mechanical skills, she was able to recognize what was good/bad about it. Given that every single other major character in SW easily flies any ship, I don't think its hard to conclude she could as well with her past. I also don't see how you can conclude she understands the Falcon better than Han. She did not do anything as a pilot or mechanic better than he did. She did repeat or acknowledge issues that he also knew and that was about it.

Fact is, her very hard life as a junk shop owner's property easily explains all the four topics. Problem is the movie couldn't go into detail as it has to expect the viewer can infer this info out of what it does show. This is no different than Luke actually. 

2. Force use better than Kylo.

That's complete BS and its so annoying how people keep repeating this. Its like you all don't actually pay attention to what's going on in the movie. Kylo Ren is very powerful in the Force. There is no question about that. However, he wasn't a master. He was still being trained. He also, like Anakin and Luke, was significantly mentally and emotionally fucked up. She also is clearly very powerful. Very likely as much as Kylo, just untrained and hasn't really figured it out yet. He clearly overwhelms her without any effort on Takodana. Then he peaks into her mind and realizes that she is very powerful. This actually startled him as he wasn't expecting it and his own narrative to Snoke states this exactly. She also was just told pretty much the same stuff Anakin and Luke were told when they were first starting to interact with the Force and as he is once again peering into her mind. So her ability to recognize that and sort of use it, is more like raw talent some people have for music / art / etc than it is miraculous as some of you preach.

Using the Force requires mind control and emotional stability. At the end of the movie Kylo is anything but stable. He's critically hurt but is using his own power to keep himself going as well as emotionally fucked and no where near stable due to just murdering his father. Which he was deeply struggling with and conflicted about. This is the ONLY reason why she was able to get a lucky hit and best him. Re-watch the ending. She did not demonstrate she was better. She was knocked out early, came out and barely defended herself until she had her own moment of quality similar to the few moments Luke did well during his first fight with Vader. (even though Vader was mostly toying with him in these scenes) 

In TLJ she had now been working with Luke and had been focused on bettering her already good skills with staffs etc that translate well to light saber. She also had focused a lot on basic Force controls. Yet she still had nothing on anyone in Snokes chamber. The only amazing Force moves here were Snoke and Kylo. Though she handled herself nicely in fighting which makes sense due to her life and defined skill set in TFA.

3. Folks like her. 

Umm so what? People liked Anakin, Luke, etc. She's a nice person and passionate about helping. People liked and quickly started to follow Jyn Erso relatively quickly as well for similar reasons. Like it or not, she is a hero of this trilogy and is being characterized as such. No different than any other hero character.

4. Summary

She is not a Mary Sue. She is not "seemingly perfect". She has failed many times and is not better in force/etc than obviously more advanced characters like Kylo. Her entire character makes sense when you get over petty bias' and pay attention to the deeper surrounding story. Her basic premise is no different than Anakin, Luke, Jyn, etc. 

5. My Rant.

My opinion is that folks will always bitch about SW when its not molded to fit exactly like the original trilogy. Any creativity to open up the universe more is met with crazy fanaticism because the movie didn't fit their personal ideas of what SW is supposed to be like. We all envisioned what young Anakin/Vader would be and couldn't accept anything different. We all envisioned what Master Luke would be like post RofJ and anything different has to be wrong and horrible. All the while completely ignoring any story plot issues, stupid jokes, and meh characterization present in the original trilogy.

SW is arguably the best saga ever created. Enjoy it instead of trying to force it to fit your personal bias.



I don't think she's quite a Mary Sue... when comparing her to Luke's youth, I'd say they replaced his naive, kind of whiny personality from Episode 4 (that's not a criticism, it was age appropriate) with an equally naive, extremely enthusiastic one akin to young Anakin. A Mary Sue is generally considered as someone beyond reproach or criticism though, and she has very clearly shown moments of selfishness and danced dangerously close to giving in to her darker thoughts.

Really, she's mostly just the kind of approachable, marketable hero that is generally male but in this case is female. If she was just a shining beacon of righteousness I might agree with the label, but she's a bit too self-serving and dangerous in my opinion, and is frequently in need of help or guidance from others.