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Forums - Movies & TV - Is Rey from Star Wars a Mary Sue?

Think if this scene would be possible with Rey...

https://youtu.be/zzeVFxIJV3k?t=168



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superchunk said:
Pavolink said:

What were the consecuences?

Her consequences at this time are emotional, not physical. Yes Anakin and Luke both lost a hand by the second movie. But Anakin didn't really lose much else from his actions, just went through a massive emotional roller coaster which led him to the Dark Side. In this trilogy, the 'chosen one' is on a emotional wrecking train as well. From her parents to her role or purpose to her deep emotional feelings for Han and now Kylo... as well as the distress Luke put her through due to his own f'ed up mental state. This will come to the forefront in the last movie. Like Anakin and Luke in the 3rd movie, she will be pressed to the emotional breaking point and have to make a choice. This choice will focus (my theory) on her real parentage, Kylo, dark/light, and her friends. The sad thing is, is if she had lost a hand to someone in this movie we wouldn't me making this claim. Instead we'd have another set of forum goers talking about repeat of previous movies just as we did with TFA. This movie actually breaks the mold and people still find something to complain about... as my rant above its all about individual's perceived notions of what they think SW should be vs the more rational issues with all of the movies.

 

Quick List:

- lost her parents
- lost Han (who she had a odd bond)
- lost her home
- lost emotional state
- lost who she is / mental foundation
- lost Luke's (Anakin's) lightsaber
- lost Luke

"Just"?

Because that rollercoaster to the Dark Sider is bigger than anything Rey had gone. That's for sure.



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superchunk said:
Pavolink said:

It would be interesting to read about that many times she failed.

Reys failures

She opens the wrong door and lets the Rathtars out, almost getting everyone killed

Shes the only person we see miss a shot with her blaster in TFA

She refuses the call, runs into the forest and loses/gets captured by Kylo

She “goes to the dark place” when reaching out to the force, which causes Luke to be reluctant to train her

She fails to convince Luke to join the cause

She fails to turn Kylo Ren which would have cost her life had Kylo not saved her.

Wow, that's  a rather poor list.

1. Really reaching here. Especially since all it leads to is a comedic scene. And actually takes care of the pirates who had just boarded. Hmm. Mary Sue? 

2. Cause she never touched a blaster. But, then fires a perfect shot the 2nd time, and many after. Hmm. Mary Sue? 

3. May have a little something here. Well, except this just leads to her revealing she is OP as fuck in the Force, with no training, and she is just able to escape her situation by herself. Hmm. Mary Sue? 

4. This could have been an awesome point for not only you, but her character. But, this scene, as well as the mirror one, just proves the Dark Side has no pull on her and she can easily refuse it. Not even Luke was that perfect. Hmm. Mary Sue?

5. Except she doesn't. He gives his life, in a rather lackluster way, I might add, because she convinced him. Had it not been her to go, the Rebels would be dead. Two fold, actually. Not only does Luke get reduced to a distraction, Rey is the true one to save them. And she just so happens to do it by demonstrating, once again, how OP she is in the Force. Hmm. Mary Sue?

6. She actually did turn him. But, the movie remembered it needed a bad guy after it wasted Snoke, so he turned right back. That scene still showed how OP Rey was. She helped take out a group of elite guards, and saved Kylo (just to make the count even), with little effort and in like 2 mins, with no training. Hmm. Mary Sue? 



Goodnightmoon said:

I don't really think so but if we have to consider that she is Mary Sue then we have to consider that mainstream cinema is plenty of Marty Stus, but nobody ever complain nearly as much about those cause you know, they were men.

If you want to talk about Marty Sues, I do find James Bond a not so good character because of that.



Ivant said:
How is this even an argument..

Those many failures are spread over two films and less than Luke gets wrong in the first film, in the second film of the original trilogy, luke gets cut up by the baddie (having been trained by two jedi masters) Rey cuts up Kylo known as the jedi killer (because he's killed many trained jedi and gets the better of Luke) and we are supposed to accept its because he's been shot, even though it seemingly affects him in no way, or because he's emotional, which lest we forget feeds the dark side....

Her force pull on the light Saber, compare it to Luke's on hoth at the start of ESB..

She uses a jedi mind trick on a stormtrooper with seemingly greater skill than Old Ben did. These are not the Droid you are looking for" VS "yeah, you know I'm the prisoner, there's no doubt on your mind, but you know, I havent had training, let me out walk off, oh yeah and drop your blaster on the way"

And for anyone saying this film has broken the mould... Jesus, it's ESB with hoth split between the beginning and end, all the same plot points for the main protagonist, and an intergalactic car chase, which is as exciting as it sounds, because there is nothing obscuring their view of each other....

The literally start the film fleeing an ice planet (the end of hoth) and end the film being besieged on a planet that clearly looks like hoth until we see the red footprints and some dude tastes it as says.. "salty"

Also the argument on her being able to fix spaceships because of her upbringing pulling ships apart seems a tad of a reach.. I mean, I have plenty of friends who could disassemble a computer, but there's a reason I assemble like theirs for them.. Completely different skillset

As I pointed out above, many of those weren't even really failures. That last point is a great one. With Luke, you get that working on things is something he picked up from, more than likely, his Uncle and a skill he needed to fix the equipment on the farm. Rey's whole purpose is to junk ships. Not fix them. That's like saying a guy who can steal the stereo and speakers out of your car should have the expertise to install them. Same goes for her ability to fly any ship. Luke could fly something similar to his T-16, but there is no way he could fly the MF in the first film. Rey can fly everything because...she has that little land speeder? Yea, those are interchangeable. I guess a motorcycle driver should just automatically be great at flying a jet. 



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superchunk said:
Pavolink said:

It would be interesting to read about that many times she failed.

Reys failures

She opens the wrong door and lets the Rathtars out, almost getting everyone killed

Shes the only person we see miss a shot with her blaster in TFA

She refuses the call, runs into the forest and loses/gets captured by Kylo

She “goes to the dark place” when reaching out to the force, which causes Luke to be reluctant to train her

She fails to convince Luke to join the cause

She fails to turn Kylo Ren which would have cost her life had Kylo not saved her.

1. A problem she promptly solves.

2. One time as a learning shot since it was her very first time firing a blaster to kill. She promptly because a master with it on the second shot.

3. All so we can see how amazing she is and doesn't need help escaping from a highly secure First Order base.

4. And then she still ends up being an unwarranted force badass and Paragon of the light side.

5. Until he does anyway for dramatic effect.

6. Oh no, she failed to turn the now-main baddie good.



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irstupid said:
She is a huge Mary Sue, just like Batman is a huge Gary Sue.

You are never going to convince a fan of either this though, so just give up.

Depends on which interpretation of Batman. In Nolan's Batman movies Batman struggles and fails. He breaks his oath not to kill with Ras Al-Ghul, he loses Rachel to the Joker, he fails Harvey seeing him descend into madness, he is hated and hounded by police, he is old and crippled, Bane breaks him leaving him in agony for weeks.

He gets a happy ending, but the journey in the Dark Knight Trilogy was pretty miserable for Bruce.



Goodnightmoon said:

I don't really think so but if we have to consider that she is Mary Sue then we have to consider that mainstream cinema is plenty of Marty Stus, but nobody ever complain nearly as much about those cause you know, they were men.

None of those appeared in one of the largest franchises with the same severity of Mary Sue that Rey is.



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KLAMarine said:

Tulipanzo said:

Didn't she almost crash the Falcon when she got it?

Almost. That's the key word here. She almost did only to win against what should have been more agile and capable spacecraft seeing as how they're smaller.

Tulipanzo said:

Plus, I'd say that being in denial about your parents origins because you passively accepted the main antagonists' mentality that your origin matter more than who you are is a pretty big character flaw.

 I don't see how such a denial is gonna impede her ability to get things done or win in fights.

Tulipanzo said:

Also Luke Skywalker actively disliked her coming at all, Han slowly grows to accept her, only Leia actively trusts her.

Did either of the three dislike her though?

Tulipanzo said:

She is no more competent than Luke was

Okay, no. That's nonsense.

Here's the end result of the first time Luke faced Darth Vader:

Luke was left hanging from an antenna, was missing a hand, and was in dire need of rescue.

Here's the end result of the first time Rey faced Kylo Ren:

She won.

So no, the two aren't comparable.

Tulipanzo said:

and as the de facto protagonist of the new trilogy it fits that she would be generally competent.

Rey was overly competent.

Tulipanzo said:

As far as criticism goes, not only is "being a Mary Sue" a very shallow and perfunctory criticism, it aligns with some world class charlatans and mouth breathers in the manosphere. I'd avoid it if I were you, because of the stupidity by association

I'm going to keep using it because it's short and to the point. If you don't like the adjective then how about this:

Rey is a Mary Sue overly competent to the point that credibility in her character and tension in the film are both destroyed.

This is way too much of a quotefest jeez, but quick round-up

1) Crashing the Falcon would end the movie, and by Star Wars logic competence with a flying vehicle is competence with any flying vehicle (see Luke and X-Wings) and we know she has flown:
"I've flown some ships, but I've never left the planet" + She shows repeated familiarity with the Falcon's history and interior, suggesting she knows enough about it to fly it, if she hasn't flown it already ("That one is garbage")

2) "Mary Sue" delineates a near flawless character, but she's shown to have huge baggage and character flaws, unrelated btw to the larger Star Wars character roster. I.E. her past is not a way for her to perfectly fit in pre-existing story-lines, which is what the original Mary Sue point in fanfiction was about.

3) Yes, Luke and Han (at least initially). Can you read?
She's the hero, so characters ultimately trusting her, especially as she is a Force user and interested in joining the Resistance, just makes sense. 
The main cast has no reason to dislike her, so why exactly would they?!
As a meta point, she clearly represents the bright-eyed optimism of Star Wars fandom, so the main cast ultimately disliking her would kind of make the point that liking Star Wars is wrong, which is just baffling! 
It seems you want the main cast to dislike her because you do...

4) Are you suggesting a wounded Kylo Ren is as strong as Darth Vader? lol
Excusing that pile of nonsense, Kylo, who is bleeding out from both a gunshot to the stomach and a slash from Finn, is shown troughout to be the superior fighter. Rey barely manages to get a "win" over him by using the Force. A reminder that Kylo is trying to turn her to the Dark Side, not to kill her.
The movie is quite clear in showing that Kylo is stronger, and that the real fight isn't over yet. Like TFA will get sequels or something.

5) Ah, you really showed me here

6) The point isn't that I don't like the term, but that stupid people tend to like it a lot. 
Ergo, using the term makes you look really, really stupid.
Go on though, just saves me the trouble of taking you seriously



Tulipanzo said:
KLAMarine said:

Almost. That's the key word here. She almost did only to win against what should have been more agile and capable spacecraft seeing as how they're smaller.

 I don't see how such a denial is gonna impede her ability to get things done or win in fights.

Did either of the three dislike her though?

Okay, no. That's nonsense.

Here's the end result of the first time Luke faced Darth Vader:

Luke was left hanging from an antenna, was missing a hand, and was in dire need of rescue.

Here's the end result of the first time Rey faced Kylo Ren:

She won.

So no, the two aren't comparable.

Rey was overly competent.

I'm going to keep using it because it's short and to the point. If you don't like the adjective then how about this:

Rey is a Mary Sue overly competent to the point that credibility in her character and tension in the film are both destroyed.

This is way too much of a quotefest jeez, but quick round-up

1) Crashing the Falcon would end the movie, and by Star Wars logic competence with a flying vehicle is competence with any flying vehicle (see Luke and X-Wings) and we know she has flown:
"I've flown some ships, but I've never left the planet" + She shows repeated familiarity with the Falcon's history and interior, suggesting she knows enough about it to fly it, if she hasn't flown it already ("That one is garbage")

2) "Mary Sue" delineates a near flawless character, but she's shown to have huge baggage and character flaws, unrelated btw to the larger Star Wars character roster. I.E. her past is not a way for her to perfectly fit in pre-existing story-lines, which is what the original Mary Sue point in fanfiction was about.

3) Yes, Luke and Han (at least initially). Can you read?
She's the hero, so characters ultimately trusting her, especially as she is a Force user and interested in joining the Resistance, just makes sense. 
The main cast has no reason to dislike her, so why exactly would they?!
As a meta point, she clearly represents the bright-eyed optimism of Star Wars fandom, so the main cast ultimately disliking her would kind of make the point that liking Star Wars is wrong, which is just baffling! 
It seems you want the main cast to dislike her because you do...

4) Are you suggesting a wounded Kylo Ren is as strong as Darth Vader? lol
Excusing that pile of nonsense, Kylo, who is bleeding out from both a gunshot to the stomach and a slash from Finn, is shown troughout to be the superior fighter. Rey barely manages to get a "win" over him by using the Force. A reminder that Kylo is trying to turn her to the Dark Side, not to kill her.
The movie is quite clear in showing that Kylo is stronger, and that the real fight isn't over yet. Like TFA will get sequels or something.

5) Ah, you really showed me here

6) The point isn't that I don't like the term, but that stupid people tend to like it a lot. 
Ergo, using the term makes you look really, really stupid.
Go on though, just saves me the trouble of taking you seriously

1. Pretty sure it wouldn't end the movie if the Falcon crashed just delay things. Luke specifically said that the X-Wing was very similar to his T-16, something he flies regularly. Even then, he didn't do any spectacular maneuvers, he just had good aim. And if she was actually familiar with the Falcon, she wouldn't have called it junk seeing as how it's the fastest ship in the galaxy. It came off more as her assuming.

 

2. Character flaws and baggage aren't detractors from being a Mary Sue unless it plays a significant negative impact during critical moments. Having baggage in Rey's case is more her backstory than an actual flaw. She's a Mary Sue because everyone likes and trusts her for no reason, and she's better at every specialist character's job than they are (better mechanic than Han, better Jedi than Like, etc).

 

3. And they end up loving her in less than 30 minutes of screentime. The problem is Star Wars movies don't have a single main character; is a roster of equality important and impactful characters. The sequel trilogy forgot that and made it The Rey Show. And there's a pretty good reason to dislike her: they have no fucking idea who she is because she doesn't know either.

 

4. Are you suggesting that Rey should be as good of a force user as someone with years of training and first hand experience when she just found out that she might be force sensitivity?

 

5. Ah, you really made a solid and relevant argument there.

 

6. So he's stupid for using a standardized term that you don't like for reasons? Glad you're not making things personal.



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