Forums - Movies Discussion - Should Yoda kills Kylo Ren ? (TLJ spoiler)

shikamaru317 said:
EspadaGrim said:

only 4 known Jedi have ever become a force spirit after they die Qui Gon Jinn, Obi Wan, Yoda and Anakin and I doubt that Yoda could manipulate weather when he was alive no matter how strong he was in the Force.

If force users can shoot lightning from their fingertips, it's not that much of a stretch to be able to make it shoot from a cloud. Who knows, maybe Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Qui Gon combined their powers with Yoda to help him make that lighting. 

Either way, my main point is that Yoda is unlikely to abuse his powers in the way that the OP describes. Killing someone that can't defend themselves as a Force Spirit would very likely darken you and prevent you from ever becoming a Force Spirit again, since only Jedi can become Force Spirits in the new canon. 

Force Lightning is a Dark Side ability though, imo the new people in charge are just bending/making up new rules, i doubt that we will see an explanation in the final film i also doubt that Yoda will show up again too.



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EspadaGrim said:
shikamaru317 said:

If force users can shoot lightning from their fingertips, it's not that much of a stretch to be able to make it shoot from a cloud. Who knows, maybe Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Qui Gon combined their powers with Yoda to help him make that lighting. 

Either way, my main point is that Yoda is unlikely to abuse his powers in the way that the OP describes. Killing someone that can't defend themselves as a Force Spirit would very likely darken you and prevent you from ever becoming a Force Spirit again, since only Jedi can become Force Spirits in the new canon. 

Force Lightning is a Dark Side ability though, imo the new people in charge are just bending/making up new rules, i doubt that we will see an explanation in the final film.

It is indeed considered a dark side power in the current canon, but in the old expanded universe there was a school of thought that said that a light side user could use powers that were traditionally considered to be dark side powers as long as they were using them for good. For instance, Plo Koon, one of the Jedi on the Council in the prequels, developed a light side version of Force Lightning he called Electric Judgement, Mace Windu used Force Crush (similar to Force Choke) on both Battle Droids and General Grievous in the first Clone Wars show, and Kyle Katarn (the Battlemaster in Luke's new Jedi Temple) used various dark side powers without ever falling to the dark side. Disney has been slowly retconning in some of the things from the Old Expanded universe that they had previously made un-canonical, maybe they will retcon the view of light and dark powers as well. 

I do agree that they won't explain Yoda's lighting strike in episode 9. So far they've been using books and comics to explain things and retcon stuff. 



Well if Yoda has this kind of power, which apparently (and disturbingly), he does.....then I hereby contend that he should no longer be a force ghost.

Only light side users can be force ghosts.
Yoda is shown to be powerful enough as a ghost that he very likely could kill Kylo, and probably Snoke, and certainly assist the new Republic in fighting off this new order, as he can appear wherever he wants across the galaxy, and effect the world around him in very violently destructive ways.
Not using this power for the good of the galaxy is inherently evil. It is evil by failing to act. It is evil because he apparently could save countless lives, but chooses not to. Waiting for "new heroes" to arise and deal with the problem is not good. It is not virtuous. It is not noble. It is in fact the very opposite of all those things.

And don't give me some "oh Yoda interfering in the events of the living would bring imbalance to the force" BS. In Star Wars, the force is literally ALWAYS imbalanced. The whole balance spiel has been such BS ever since George Lucas first introduced it that it's not even funny. There is always one side that has the upper hand. The force is NEVER in balance. The only balance it apparently cares to create is power level of the alignments of force users active in the galaxy, not that this ever leads to the sides they fight for being in balance. So if a force ghost like Yoda can appear around the Galaxy blowing shit up with lighting, and the force allows this, this force which is so concerned about the powers of force users around the galaxy balancing out, why can he not use this power to effect real change? There is not a single good reason you can give me for why that would be the case.


This movie is fucking stupid



My understanding is that the force seeks balance. As Yoda is essentially one with the force now, he can only act within the confines of that balance. The turmoil within Luke regarding the temple/tree was throwing the force out of balance so Yoda acted as the force as a whole and restored balance. He did not utilize his own force powers to summon lightning, he acted as more of a messenger of the force.

While I have a good deal of issues with the movie and with Rian Johnson's handling of logic (which was also an issue in Looper), this isn't really one of them.



sundin13 said:
My understanding is that the force seeks balance. As Yoda is essentially one with the force now, he can only act within the confines of that balance. The turmoil within Luke regarding the temple/tree was throwing the force out of balance so Yoda acted as the force as a whole and restored balance. He did not utilize his own force powers to summon lightning, he acted as more of a messenger of the force.

While I have a good deal of issues with the movie and with Rian Johnson's handling of logic (which was also an issue in Looper), this isn't really one of them.

Please explain to me how Luke's feelings about the temple effect the balance of the force in any way, shape, or form. He's just an old fart sitting around. Has been apparently for some time. If his conflicting emotions (about anything for that matter) is such an issue for the force (which he also apparently cut himself off from a while ago), why didn't it just send Yoda to smack some sense into him via lightning bolt or whatever right fucking then when it became an issue? Because Luke's whole conflicting emotions, and disappearing act is basically what threw the force all out of whack the second he decided he should sneak into Ben's room and contemplate turning him into swiss cheese for thinking naughty thoughts. The force was plenty content enough with Luke's absence, conflicting emotions, and general lack of caring, when it was just pumping all it's good guy juice into Rey, ignoring literally every other force sensitive person in the whole wide galaxy.

Also, the force sure lets one side (usually the evil one) do a whole lot of curb stomping before it decides it's time to send a message and get back to "balancing" shit.



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sundin13 said:
My understanding is that the force seeks balance. As Yoda is essentially one with the force now, he can only act within the confines of that balance. The turmoil within Luke regarding the temple/tree was throwing the force out of balance so Yoda acted as the force as a whole and restored balance. He did not utilize his own force powers to summon lightning, he acted as more of a messenger of the force.

While I have a good deal of issues with the movie and with Rian Johnson's handling of logic (which was also an issue in Looper), this isn't really one of them.

That's a good explanation. Gotta agree with you on this one. TLJ has alot of issues but I also don't see this as one of them.



sundin13 said:
My understanding is that the force seeks balance. As Yoda is essentially one with the force now, he can only act within the confines of that balance. The turmoil within Luke regarding the temple/tree was throwing the force out of balance so Yoda acted as the force as a whole and restored balance. He did not utilize his own force powers to summon lightning, he acted as more of a messenger of the force.

While I have a good deal of issues with the movie and with Rian Johnson's handling of logic (which was also an issue in Looper), this isn't really one of them.

I will go with Angelus, this balance story doesn't make sense when the dark side is so far ahead and ready to destroy whole planet systems. If Yoda is willing to intervene to give some sense To Luke, he can intervene to kill his ennemies.

Being a Force ghost was not about becoming neutral, it was about to continue to help.



Well Yoda is the most powerful Force user who ever lived so he probably could, but he just doesn't because I guess he feels like people should solve their own problems or he thinks Kylo Ren should be saved.



Because that wouldn’t make for a very entertaining movie.

I mean, it’s Star Wars. I love the franchise (except episode 1. And 2. And also 3.) but they’re all flawed in their own way and not Kent to be taken seriously. They’re action movies.



Angelus said:
sundin13 said:
My understanding is that the force seeks balance. As Yoda is essentially one with the force now, he can only act within the confines of that balance. The turmoil within Luke regarding the temple/tree was throwing the force out of balance so Yoda acted as the force as a whole and restored balance. He did not utilize his own force powers to summon lightning, he acted as more of a messenger of the force.

While I have a good deal of issues with the movie and with Rian Johnson's handling of logic (which was also an issue in Looper), this isn't really one of them.

Please explain to me how Luke's feelings about the temple effect the balance of the force in any way, shape, or form. He's just an old fart sitting around. Has been apparently for some time. If his conflicting emotions (about anything for that matter) is such an issue for the force (which he also apparently cut himself off from a while ago), why didn't it just send Yoda to smack some sense into him via lightning bolt or whatever right fucking then when it became an issue? Because Luke's whole conflicting emotions, and disappearing act is basically what threw the force all out of whack the second he decided he should sneak into Ben's room and contemplate turning him into swiss cheese for thinking naughty thoughts. The force was plenty content enough with Luke's absence, conflicting emotions, and general lack of caring, when it was just pumping all it's good guy juice into Rey, ignoring literally every other force sensitive person in the whole wide galaxy.

Also, the force sure lets one side (usually the evil one) do a whole lot of curb stomping before it decides it's time to send a message and get back to "balancing" shit.

Luke's feelings about the temple affect the balance of the force because Luke's influence was largely pivotal to the conflict we saw in the movie. If he was unable to move forwards with his character arc and get past his feelings about the force and the past, the resistance may have died in that base. As for why it didn't happen earlier, perhaps there were other avenues of balance that were able to keep things from breaking before that point (evidenced by the fact that the rebellion survived to that point still around). Additionally, we know that Luke had closed himself off from the force. Rey's arrival seemed to have made him conflicted about that decision, allowing the force (aka Yoda) to work its way back in. One interesting tidbit is that Force ghosts require a strong presence of the force to serve as a beacon to allow them to home in on the location or person they are looking for. It is quite possible that Yoda couldn't actually find Luke until Rey showed up. 

Also, I think the reason that the Sith are often able to push things away from balance, is because the Jedi seek balance while the Sith do not. Because of that, the view of the Jedi as the "light" and the Sith as the "Dark" is a bit misleading. Balance is a fairly natural state of life and death in harmony. Perhaps it would be more apt to describe the Jedi as "harmony" and the Sith as "entropy". As such, when power shifts to the Jedi, the galaxy finds harmony between light and dark whereas when the Sith find power, the galaxy finds disorder and chaos. Perhaps it could be said that the "dark side" vs "light side" are tools which are used as opposed to states in which the Jedi/Sith exist in. The Sith use the power of the dark side to throw the galaxy out of balance, which the Jedi use the power of the light side to bring the galaxy back into balance.

That said, I am no expert in the Extended Universe (or I guess even Star Wars as a whole).