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Forums - Movies & TV - George Lucas Was Right About the Star Wars Fanbase

MTZehvor said:

...I keep coming back to all of these, because they all bother me to a degree (except for 2, although that brings up another issue that I tied into #4). I'm not sure where the claim that Snoke is the one I continually reference. And, again, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make by saying "these aren't plotholes." Are you arguing that these claims, even if my logic does hold up, aren't plotholes, or just that my logic is flawed and therefore it isn't a plothole?

 

I'm not interested in going back and forth on every point, so I'm just going to focus on this one, since it seems to best exemplify my disagreement with you.

" You mentioned in a previous post that: Luke however, unlike the others, still has something to do in this world.  So he is able to partially give himself to the force, essentially leaving him halfway between life and death, which is why his force apparition is more corporeal.  

Unless I missed something blatant in the movie, this is just speculation, at which point, yes, it does become a plothole. When a certain established character or power somehow gains the ability to do something which they were unable to do before without a stated or easily inferred explanation as to why, it becomes a plothole."

This just isn't a plothole.  A movie not explaining everything in detail is not a plothole.  A plothole is when something happens in the movie that goes against established rules or simply doesn't make sense.

Luke gaining a new ability doesn't violate any rules.  It's a logical extension of the rules.  We have seen by this point three characters doing something incredibly similar to this, two of them were involved in training Luke, and at least two out of the three people have communed with Luke after his death.  It isn't a plot hole any more than Luke suddenly being able to summon his light saber, Obi Wan being able to appear as a ghost, the Emperor busting out force lightning, Darth Vader using force choke for the first time, or any other instance of them showing off a new ability. We have a good sense of what the force can do, and if a character is doing something that is within this realm, we don't need a detailed explanation as to why.

A movie not explaining everything in detail is not a plothole, and that seems what your complaints are about.  If you want to say that you just don't like this style of storytelling, that's your opinion, but plothole implies an objective error which none of these are.



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gigaSheik said:
George Lucas doesn't understand the SW fanbase since Episode I.

I'd say Lucas has a good grasp on the SW fan base and that is why he sold out to Disney.  He knew he would get shit on pretty much no matter what he did with the franchise. Why not make one last huge payday on your brain child and let someone else get shit on for what they do with it. Basically some of us die hard fans of the original trilogy are whiny bitches and thanks to the internet we have a platform where we can be heard by people like Lucas.

 

If it weren't for Jar-Jar, the terrible acting by the leads, and some questionable dialog I may have liked episodes 1-3.  At the end of the day though Jar-Jar was for the kids not for me. I really can't excuse the acting as I'm sure both leads could have done a better job, perhaps some of the dialog would have been better if the director did a better job of getting more than wooden performances from his leads. <--- see whiny



JWeinCom said:
MTZehvor said:

...I keep coming back to all of these, because they all bother me to a degree (except for 2, although that brings up another issue that I tied into #4). I'm not sure where the claim that Snoke is the one I continually reference. And, again, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make by saying "these aren't plotholes." Are you arguing that these claims, even if my logic does hold up, aren't plotholes, or just that my logic is flawed and therefore it isn't a plothole?

 

I'm not interested in going back and forth on every point, so I'm just going to focus on this one, since it seems to best exemplify my disagreement with you.

" You mentioned in a previous post that: Luke however, unlike the others, still has something to do in this world.  So he is able to partially give himself to the force, essentially leaving him halfway between life and death, which is why his force apparition is more corporeal.  

Unless I missed something blatant in the movie, this is just speculation, at which point, yes, it does become a plothole. When a certain established character or power somehow gains the ability to do something which they were unable to do before without a stated or easily inferred explanation as to why, it becomes a plothole."

This just isn't a plothole.  A movie not explaining everything in detail is not a plothole.  A plothole is when something happens in the movie that goes against established rules or simply doesn't make sense.

Luke gaining a new ability doesn't violate any rules.  It's a logical extension of the rules.  We have seen by this point three characters doing something incredibly similar to this, two of them were involved in training Luke, and at least two out of the three people have communed with Luke after his death.  It isn't a plot hole any more than Luke suddenly being able to summon his light saber, Obi Wan being able to appear as a ghost, the Emperor busting out force lightning, Darth Vader using force choke for the first time, or any other instance of them showing off a new ability. We have a good sense of what the force can do, and if a character is doing something that is within this realm, we don't need a detailed explanation as to why.

A movie not explaining everything in detail is not a plothole, and that seems what your complaints are about.  If you want to say that you just don't like this style of storytelling, that's your opinion, but plothole implies an objective error which none of these are.

I want to focus on the bolded, because that is exactly the issue that I'm honing in on. You're right that, in most of these cases, there's no in-universe rule that's specifically violated. But I would content that, given what we know about the universe, these things should not be the case: They do not make sense considering what has been established in this universe previously.

Luke gaining a new ability is not a problem in and of itself. Where it becomes a problem is the "how" of this power being obtained. We have never seen any Jedi, or anyone to my knowledge, possess the ability to project a holographic image of themselves across the galaxy. So where did Luke learn how to do this? Did he just stumble upon it himself, and if so, why did it take some guy living like a homeless person on an abandoned rock to figure this out? The issue that makes it a plothole is the context of the universe that the movie (TLJ) operates within; given what we know about the Jedi in the past, it makes little sense that someone who swore off the Jedi would be the one to discover a technique over the thousands, if not millions, of Jedi that came before who had access to far better training.

The example of Obi-Wan turning into a ghost is actually quite useful in illustrating my point. When the force ghost concept was originally introduced in Episode V, it was not a plothole, because there was no context in previous Star Wars history to suggest that Jedi could not reanimate as a specter upon death. However, if the prequels had gone by and the entire concept of force ghosting was never shown or addressed, it would have become a plothole retroactively. We would have known that force users do not usually have this power, and yet  both Obi-Wan and Yoda somehow gained an ability that no one else had previously. The discussion between Obi-Wan and Yoda at the end of Episode 3 prevents this from becoming a plothole, however, by explaining where the power came from, and in turn explaining why no other Jedi previously had access to it.

You're right that a movie doesn't have to explain "everything in detail," in that every single detail doesn't have to be elaborated on. But, when it comes to significant aspects of the story that don't seem to line up with previously established rules, those do have to be explained. Again, this all ties back to the concept of a plothole by absence of information that I discussed last time, that at least one group of professional storywriters considers to constitute a plothole.



The_Yoda said:
gigaSheik said:
George Lucas doesn't understand the SW fanbase since Episode I.

I'd say Lucas has a good grasp on the SW fan base and that is why he sold out to Disney.  He knew he would get shit on pretty much no matter what he did with the franchise. Why not make one last huge payday on your brain child and let someone else get shit on for what they do with it. Basically some of us die hard fans of the original trilogy are whiny bitches and thanks to the internet we have a platform where we can be heard by people like Lucas.

 

If it weren't for Jar-Jar, the terrible acting by the leads, and some questionable dialog I may have liked episodes 1-3.  At the end of the day though Jar-Jar was for the kids not for me. I really can't excuse the acting as I'm sure both leads could have done a better job, perhaps some of the dialog would have been better if the director did a better job of getting more than wooden performances from his leads. <--- see whiny

He sold, because there were a lot of zeros on that check. He actually still wanted to be part of the creative process with Disney, as I recall, and they basically told him to kick rocks.



I'll be the first to admit that "The Last Jedi" is flawed in a number of ways, but I was overjoyed at the amount of new ground that was broken in the film. It seems that the old adage is right that general audiences don't want anything new of sequels, they just want the same "feeling" the got from the first film to be repackaged. 

Literally nothing new was added to Episode 8 though. The entire film (minus the Rey and Luke parts, which took place over like a week) legit took place over the course of one day. The WHOLE movie was one giant slow car chase that didn't advance the plot at all. About 90% of the main characters were on there so the audience knew they were never in any danger. And even when they had the balls to kill off Leia she becomes superman and miraculously still lives, I was willing to accept that part cause maybe in a life or death situation her innate force abilities kicked in.

But still, the whole movie was slow paced, boring, Poe & Finn's side arc had nothing going for it and ended up being completely worthless. Kylo Ren's characterization was cool, especially after he killed Snoke (tbh Kylo matured a bit in this film and I think that's one of the few things that this movie delivered on for the fans) BUT AFTER KILLING SNOKE HE LEGIT WENT RIGHT BACK TO WHERE HE STARTED. You think he's about to team up with Rey? Nope, he's still evil and everything he just did was for nothing. And while we're on that was the laziest writing ever, you take one of the most mysterious characters in Star Wars history (Snoke) and kill him off for a slight characterization of Kylo (which as we just saw, proves to be completely useless) This film destroyed everything Episode 7 worked to create. Not to mention, legitimately nothing happened.

Oh also they destroyed literally all of Luke's characterization in Episode 6. "The Jedi need to come to an end, the force is not there's to keep." -- Umm yeah, that's why the Jedi Order was about keeping the peace and keeping the BALANCE of the force, not only the light side, God it's like Rian Johnson never even watched Episodes 1-3. Not to mention Luke's characterization in Episode 6 is that he's the perfect Jedi, the perfect good, so him thinking of assassinating Kylo is just plain retarded, they changed his character for the worse, also him running off cause he failed after isn't Luke at all. Remember in Episode 5 when he left Dagobah to save his friends? Knowing that he was walking into Vader's trap? Yeah, THAT'S Luke, he wouldn't run and hide after failing Han and Leia's kid, he'd stay there to help his friends. Also if he didn't want to be found why would he leave a map? It destroys the whole point of Episode 7, the rebellion was betting it all on that.

Those are but a few of my complaints. As a whole, Episode 8 is undoubtedly the weakest Star Wars to date, it wasn't terrible, there were like one or two good parts (good, not great) that I didn't mind (The Yoda scene and Kylo choosing not to kill Leia being the two). That being said, this wasn't a good movie, let alone a good Star Wars movie, not even close.



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I hated the film, a few good moments, jumping to hyperspace through the first order ships being the standout moment.

But loads of stuff to dislike, the plotline very much followed empire, start off with rebels hurriedly evacuating a base on a snowy world, just making it away as star destroyers close in with individual pilots bravery being the sole reason for escape, there is the closest thing you can get to a training montage without the cheese, then the lead hero (Rey) boards an enemy stronghold before finding themselves at the mercy of the big baddie, followed by a parental revelation (that sucked and doesn't fit with lucas' "the main films are the story of the Skywalker family") luckily there was no dismemberment this time..

And then we end it with a hoth style assault on a rebel base like the only way they have managed to differentiate it is to split the hoth remake between the start and end of the film.

Which of course is followed by the shitty ending with Luke..

Luke whose most notable moments in the film are: milking an alien cow, a lame shoulder brush with his force projection and appearing to die at the end.

Poe is meant to be a resistance hero, kicks ass at the start, then spends the rest of the film messing up and being chastised by powerful women for his boyish foolishness, even though his decisions are the most apparent solution, and no one actually tells such an integral rebel ANYTHING..

Finn might as well have not been in the film, ridiculous side story, his much talked up battle with phasma was terrible.

Bb8 is ridiculous at the start, an astromech Droid, in a tension building scene being used as comic relief by frying its own head... Then turning in to a glorified coin dispenser, who installed that feature?!?

Leia had an awesome moment to be killed off given the sad demise of fisher, instead she turns full blown space wizard and Flys back to the ship on her invisible broomstick while reaching for the golden snitch..

Chewy is used as a vehicle to kick down a door and roar at some stupid little creatures that resemble bug eyed cavalier king Charles spaniels.

No reveal on who snoke is, I can forgive one "well the big reveal is a disappointment on purpose" but not two, or rather the absence of any payoff, and I don't buy the directors (the emperor wasn't revealed in empire) because of course he wasn't, we didn't need backstop for him then, he had just arrived, in a second film.. They told us in TFA that snoke has always been around and was manipulating Palpatine FFS, there's quite a difference of importance, including 7 films vs 1...

The only other high point of the film and the only real story is the development between Rey and Kylo, and it was basically a film reduced down, that was about an angsty emo teen being in to a girl..

Also the lightsaber battle was cool..

Terrible film, no story progression (in terms of the film length) plot holes, unresolved questions from 7 and more loose ends, while also completely negating and ruining the iconic Character of the series by turning him in to a fauna abusing grumpy hermit, completely against the character of the old Luke who spent three films trying to reignite the spark of good in his father, only to try and kill his nephew for seeing the possibility of him going to the dark side



It was a very good film, without question. I don't really even care what the Star Wars fanbase thinks these days anyway, so if you didn't like the film then that's your problem. I enjoyed it very much.



Personally, I like all of the Star Wars movies.



This is the first one I have disliked, I even enjoy the phantom menace.



Broke new ground? In this movie basically nothing happened, a bunch of scenes for the kiddies, leads went nowhere, and the main plot was "we bout run out of gas." It was basically Disney trying to Marvel the SW universe to appeal to the most amount of people possible. Ironically, the way SW was already appealed to a mass amount of people and they will see diminishing returns thanks to this choice.