By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Movies & TV - George Lucas Was Right About the Star Wars Fanbase

Ok I watched the movie and I'm completely disoriented, what the fuck is wrong with people? The Last Jedi is absolutely amazing, sure it has some flaws here and there but holy shit, it was extremelly enjoyable, exciting and unpredictable, to me is clearly one of the best Star Wars movies ever made, I really cannot understand the ridiculous overreaction of the fans at all, thankfully the critics did gave it the credits it deseved and the movie is being pretty succesful. So far I'm really glad with the new trilogy.



Around the Network
MTZehvor said:
JWeinCom said: 

If these are your ideas of plotholes, then you're misusing the term.  Perhaps you'd like these things explained more in depth, and if that's the kind of storytelling you prefer, then that's fine.  But nothing about any of this (except maybe #1) actually doesn't make sense or go against any of the world's rules.

 

3) Given that not five minutes earlier a Resistance fighter crashed her ship into a friendly ship to stop him from taking out an enemy cannon, and only an hour ago had two coups back to back, I don't think the kindergarden label is inaccurate. And, again, why take the chance? The resistance is scared, many of their members are clearly not thinking very straight, and they're backed into a corner. They're probably not in the best state of mind. Why would you assume that they would be thinking logically when you can just, with a single sentence, ensure that they get what you're doing?

And the idea of Luke just acting erratically is a poor excuse at best. If he was capable of formulating a plan like that and having a last, meaningful conversation with his sister, I think his mental condition was intact enough to simply say "Hey I'm stalling them, make a run for it."

 

Not looking to get involved in the argument for the most part.  I like the film and believe most of the commonly raised points can be easily rebutted, but I know insurmountable vitriol and fanbase division when I see it (been an Elder Scrolls fan long enough to know what that looks like :P ) but this particular point has a good explanation someone pointed out to me:

Kylo Ren and Snoke can read minds, even when not putting forth effort they can sense basic intentions (not that that's always sufficient as Snoke found out).  Luke knew that and I doubt he was aware that Snoke was dead.  He knew he needed to keep Ren absolutely distracted.  That's why he showed up looking like he did years ago when Ren last saw him.  That's why he was so brazen and made it appear he was so powerful.  That's why he taunted him.  If he told them, he knew there was a chance Ren would read their minds and find out his plan.  He needed to bet they would figure it out and escape *after* he had Ren distracted.  And he didn't have to worry about Ren reading his mind because, obviously, he wasn't actually there.  



Goodnightmoon said:

Ok I watched the movie and I'm completely disoriented, what the fuck is wrong with people? The Last Jedi is absolutely amazing, sure it has some flaws here and there but holy shit, it was extremelly enjoyable, exciting and unpredictable, to me is clearly one of the best Star Wars movies ever made, I really cannot understand the ridiculous overreaction of the fans at all, thankfully the critics did gave it the credits it deseved and the movie is being pretty succesful. So far I'm really glad with the new trilogy.

Off topic, but I've been meaning to ask you for a while: where did you get/what is your Metroid sig from? It's pure awesomeness. 



Retro Tech Select - My Youtube channel. Covers throwback consumer electronics with a focus on "vid'ya games."

Latest Video: Top 12: Best Games on the N64 - Special Features, Episode 7

Nuvendil said:

Kylo Ren and Snoke can read minds, even when not putting forth effort they can sense basic intentions (not that that's always sufficient as Snoke found out).  Luke knew that and I doubt he was aware that Snoke was dead.  He knew he needed to keep Ren absolutely distracted.  That's why he showed up looking like he did years ago when Ren last saw him.  That's why he was so brazen and made it appear he was so powerful.  That's why he taunted him.  If he told them, he knew there was a chance Ren would read their minds and find out his plan.  He needed to bet they would figure it out and escape *after* he had Ren distracted.  And he didn't have to worry about Ren reading his mind because, obviously, he wasn't actually there.  

That's an interesting explanation that makes a lot more sense than anything else I've heard, but wouldn't it all go to waste as soon as someone inside the base decided to make a run for it? Wouldn't Kylo (or Snoke, if he was alive and paying attention to what was going on) notice the change in intentions as soon as the Resistance decided to flee? I suppose you can make the argument that maybe Kylo would have been so distracted by Luke that he wouldn't notice the change in thoughts going on in the base, but the alive-in-this-hypothetical-scenario Snoke wouldn't be directly focused on Luke and that same distraction wouldn't apply; he'd still be just as likely to read the thoughts of the Resistance as he was before.

Also, by that logic, if Kylo was consistently reading intentions, shouldn't he have been able to discern Luke was an apparition (or at least figure out something was up), since there were no thoughts, and by extension intentions, to read? And wouldn't Luke be concerned with Snoke quickly figuring out his projection by that same reasoning; no thoughts/intentions to read?

Last edited by MTZehvor - on 21 December 2017

MTZehvor said:
Nuvendil said:

Kylo Ren and Snoke can read minds, even when not putting forth effort they can sense basic intentions (not that that's always sufficient as Snoke found out).  Luke knew that and I doubt he was aware that Snoke was dead.  He knew he needed to keep Ren absolutely distracted.  That's why he showed up looking like he did years ago when Ren last saw him.  That's why he was so brazen and made it appear he was so powerful.  That's why he taunted him.  If he told them, he knew there was a chance Ren would read their minds and find out his plan.  He needed to bet they would figure it out and escape *after* he had Ren distracted.  And he didn't have to worry about Ren reading his mind because, obviously, he wasn't actually there.  

That's an interesting explanation that makes a lot more sense than anything else I've heard, but wouldn't it all go to waste as soon as someone inside the base decided to make a run for it? Wouldn't Kylo (or Snoke, if he was alive and paying attention to what was going on) notice the change in intentions as soon as the Resistance decided to flee? I suppose you can make the argument that maybe Kylo would have been so distracted by Luke that he wouldn't notice the change in thoughts going on in the base, but the alive-in-this-hypothetical-scenario Snoke wouldn't be directly focused on Luke and that same distraction wouldn't apply; he'd still be just as likely to read the thoughts of the Resistance as he was before.

Also, by that logic, if Kylo was consistently reading intentions, shouldn't he have been able to discern Luke was an apparition (or at least figure out something was up), since there were no thoughts, and by extension intentions, to read? And wouldn't Luke be concerned with Snoke quickly figuring out his projection by that same reasoning; no thoughts/intentions to read?

I didn't say he was consistently reading minds, but that it was an ability he had and Luke knew he had.  Also, this has to be thought of from Luke's perspective.  He's lightyears away, marooned on a mostly uninhabited planet.  His only realistic option is to bank on the fact Ren and Snoke absolutely hate him and on the fact this trick would make him look unbelievably powerful.  Like I said, he didn't show up looking exactly the way he did when Ren believed he tried to murder him on accident, he wanted to make him enraged.  Also, it is worth mentioning he may have known Snoke was dead, when powerful force users die, other powerful ones often can sense it if they are paying attention.  In fact, going by Luke's own words, it seems he knew only Ren was there to be challenged.  And if that's the case - a decently reasonable thing to think - it all makes good sense.  Though in reality, this is Luke's only move.  And it's one he could be fairly confident would work cause it worked on the Emperor, who was so distracted focusing all his rage on Luke he never picked up on Vader turning good - even though he was a fellow force user and standing right next to him - until it was too late.  As for figuring out it's a projection, two things work in his favor. One is that Ren would likely never think Luke would just kill himself to buy time, not given his opinion of him.  Remember, Ren knew of this theoretical technique, but commented it would kill you from the effort.  Second is Luke has kept himself profoundly well hidden from Snoke and Ren who have been looking for him for a while.  He would likely just assume Luke is shielding himself.  He is far more powerful in practical terms than Rey.  And again, also, the emotional side of things.  Ren wants to kill Luke, this would cloud his judgment considerably, Luke knows this from first hand experience.



Around the Network
Nuvendil said:
MTZehvor said:

That's an interesting explanation that makes a lot more sense than anything else I've heard, but wouldn't it all go to waste as soon as someone inside the base decided to make a run for it? Wouldn't Kylo (or Snoke, if he was alive and paying attention to what was going on) notice the change in intentions as soon as the Resistance decided to flee? I suppose you can make the argument that maybe Kylo would have been so distracted by Luke that he wouldn't notice the change in thoughts going on in the base, but the alive-in-this-hypothetical-scenario Snoke wouldn't be directly focused on Luke and that same distraction wouldn't apply; he'd still be just as likely to read the thoughts of the Resistance as he was before.

Also, by that logic, if Kylo was consistently reading intentions, shouldn't he have been able to discern Luke was an apparition (or at least figure out something was up), since there were no thoughts, and by extension intentions, to read? And wouldn't Luke be concerned with Snoke quickly figuring out his projection by that same reasoning; no thoughts/intentions to read?

I didn't say he was consistently reading minds, but that it was an ability he had and Luke knew he had.  Also, this has to be thought of from Luke's perspective.  He's lightyears away, marooned on a mostly uninhabited planet.  His only realistic option is to bank on the fact Ren and Snoke absolutely hate him and on the fact this trick would make him look unbelievably powerful.  Like I said, he didn't show up looking exactly the way he did when Ren believed he tried to murder him on accident, he wanted to make him enraged.  Also, it is worth mentioning he may have known Snoke was dead, when powerful force users die, other powerful ones often can sense it if they are paying attention.  In fact, going by Luke's own words, it seems he knew only Ren was there to be challenged.  And if that's the case - a decently reasonable thing to think - it all makes good sense.  Though in reality, this is Luke's only move.  And it's one he could be fairly confident would work cause it worked on the Emperor, who was so distracted focusing all his rage on Luke he never picked up on Vader turning good - even though he was a fellow force user and standing right next to him - until it was too late.  As for figuring out it's a projection, two things work in his favor. One is that Ren would likely never think Luke would just kill himself to buy time, not given his opinion of him.  Remember, Ren knew of this theoretical technique, but commented it would kill you from the effort.  Second is Luke has kept himself profoundly well hidden from Snoke and Ren who have been looking for him for a while.  He would likely just assume Luke is shielding himself.  He is far more powerful in practical terms than Rey.  And again, also, the emotional side of things.  Ren wants to kill Luke, this would cloud his judgment considerably, Luke knows this from first hand experience.

...not to be presumptuous, but it seems like you just spent the last 300+ words undermining your initial argument. If Kylo isn't consistently reading minds, and Luke is aware Snoke is dead, then we're right back at the original scenario where there's no reason to not tell the resistance what to do. If Luke is so worried about the mere possibility that Kylo Ren could read minds beyond those that Snoke connected him with, he could pass a note to Leia, tell her to not read it until he was outside, and then no actions change until Kylo is preoccupied. 

And this is even more the case if Luke knows Kylo is just out there looking to be challenged/take revenge. Even if Kylo did detect some kind of mental/intention change or whatever, as soon as Luke appeared outside, he would probably forget all that and just focus on Luke. This goes doubly if Kylo is convinced that Luke would never simply let himself get killed. Furthermore, as you mentioned earlier, even Snoke, who was far more powerful than Kylo, could only really detect feelings and some basic actions; he couldn't distinguish the difference between a lightsaber being turned to kill him and a lightsaber being held near Rey. Kylo, then, who is less powerful than Snoke, would have even less capability to detect what the rebels were doing in a cave several hundred yards away from him. The notion of Luke banking on the resistance reading his intentions into a plan because maybe some highly emotional guy who maybe has the power to notice intentions will maybe get over his lust for revenge and provide solid orders for once is just a terrible risk-reward proposition.



MTZehvor said:
Nuvendil said:

I didn't say he was consistently reading minds, but that it was an ability he had and Luke knew he had.  Also, this has to be thought of from Luke's perspective.  He's lightyears away, marooned on a mostly uninhabited planet.  His only realistic option is to bank on the fact Ren and Snoke absolutely hate him and on the fact this trick would make him look unbelievably powerful.  Like I said, he didn't show up looking exactly the way he did when Ren believed he tried to murder him on accident, he wanted to make him enraged.  Also, it is worth mentioning he may have known Snoke was dead, when powerful force users die, other powerful ones often can sense it if they are paying attention.  In fact, going by Luke's own words, it seems he knew only Ren was there to be challenged.  And if that's the case - a decently reasonable thing to think - it all makes good sense.  Though in reality, this is Luke's only move.  And it's one he could be fairly confident would work cause it worked on the Emperor, who was so distracted focusing all his rage on Luke he never picked up on Vader turning good - even though he was a fellow force user and standing right next to him - until it was too late.  As for figuring out it's a projection, two things work in his favor. One is that Ren would likely never think Luke would just kill himself to buy time, not given his opinion of him.  Remember, Ren knew of this theoretical technique, but commented it would kill you from the effort.  Second is Luke has kept himself profoundly well hidden from Snoke and Ren who have been looking for him for a while.  He would likely just assume Luke is shielding himself.  He is far more powerful in practical terms than Rey.  And again, also, the emotional side of things.  Ren wants to kill Luke, this would cloud his judgment considerably, Luke knows this from first hand experience.

...not to be presumptuous, but it seems like you just spent the last 300+ words undermining your initial argument. If Kylo isn't consistently reading minds, and Luke is aware Snoke is dead, then we're right back at the original scenario where there's no reason to not tell the resistance what to do. If Luke is so worried about the mere possibility that Kylo Ren could read minds beyond those that Snoke connected him with, he could pass a note to Leia, tell her to not read it until he was outside, and then no actions change until Kylo is preoccupied. 

And this is even more the case if Luke knows Kylo is just out there looking to be challenged/take revenge. Even if Kylo did detect some kind of mental/intention change or whatever, as soon as Luke appeared outside, he would probably forget all that and just focus on Luke. This goes doubly if Kylo is convinced that Luke would never simply let himself get killed. Furthermore, as you mentioned earlier, even Snoke, who was far more powerful than Kylo, could only really detect feelings and some basic actions; he couldn't distinguish the difference between a lightsaber being turned to kill him and a lightsaber being held near Rey. Kylo, then, who is less powerful than Snoke, would have even less capability to detect what the rebels were doing in a cave several hundred yards away from him. The notion of Luke banking on the resistance reading his intentions into a plan because maybe some highly emotional guy who maybe has the power to notice intentions will maybe get over his lust for revenge and provide solid orders for once is just a terrible risk-reward proposition.

Damn it, the site crashed.

Not retyping the whole response so here's the cliff notes.

1)  He doesn't have to be CONSTANTLY reading minds for his ability to easily read intentions to be a serious, serious risk.

2) I never said Ren was only there to be challenged, I was referencing what Luke said.  In other words, only Ren was there and he knew it.

3)  Yeah, Ren probably would focus on Luke, but there's other forces there.  He would fight Luke and send the rest to attack the Resistance.  

4)  He couldn't give Leia a note, he was incorporeal.  He did give her the dice, which were an illusion, which was probably a hint to her that he's fine.  It makes sense he only gave *her* this hint since she would be the mlst resistant to Ren.

5)  Snoke could absolutely sense precise intents and thoughts, but he had to obviously intentionally due so.  He didn't because he could sense Ren was fully resolved to the dark side and he had a lightsaber pointed at Rey's head, he thought he had won.  This is something we've seen before, the difference between a surface level reading and more focused one.

6) This is all getting far too complicated for a very small issue which is why I didn't want to get involved in this thread in the first place.



StuOhQ said:
Goodnightmoon said:

Ok I watched the movie and I'm completely disoriented, what the fuck is wrong with people? The Last Jedi is absolutely amazing, sure it has some flaws here and there but holy shit, it was extremelly enjoyable, exciting and unpredictable, to me is clearly one of the best Star Wars movies ever made, I really cannot understand the ridiculous overreaction of the fans at all, thankfully the critics did gave it the credits it deseved and the movie is being pretty succesful. So far I'm really glad with the new trilogy.

Off topic, but I've been meaning to ask you for a while: where did you get/what is your Metroid sig from? It's pure awesomeness. 

From here: https://robinwouters.deviantart.com/art/Metroid-508421658

It is truly awesome, I would love to play a metroid with that style.



My first reaction to watching the Last Jedi in a word would probably be.. "Huh..?" (Sploilers ahead)

It's just.. such a bizzare movie. Nothing made any sense or went anywhere. Everything seemed disjointed and completely separate from The Force Awakens, and especially the original trilogy canon. A few minor positives I'd take from it is that at least it didn't follow Empire verbatim like I feared it would and like TFA followed the main beats of ANH, and of course the visuals were pretty solid, but that's about it. I guess I kind of appreciated some of the internal conflict of the characters like Luke.. but the main problem with that was that there was very little character development or background to supplement this. For instance, WHY exactly was Luke so bitter, depressed, and reluctant? WHAT exactly makes Rey so special? Who is Snoke, and why/how did he rise to power? Kylo Ren was the one character with a touch of real depth, at least in terms of depth that made sense and was somewhat explained.

And we still have little information about the First Order and Resistance. How did the First Order rise after the destruction of the empire 30 years earlier? There was very little on world building or politics of the galaxy here. I'm not saying have an overly convoluted political story ala Episode 1, but jeez.. Have SOMETHING at least to make sense of all of this..

And what was the purpose for Rose for that matter? That whole character and the entire subplot with Finn seemed utterly pointless and felt more like a Star Wars TV show than a movie, let alone part of a major chapter in the mainline series.. So many weird, nonsensical moments that seemed out of place and pointless. Leia floating through space, Yoda showing up to burn the Jedi archives and basically saying "fuck the Jedi." WHAT? Isn't that like, what a SITH would say? Poe, Finn, and Rose all failing in their missions. Luke doing this bizarre force projection to confront Kylo Ren only to keel over and die anyway?

There was just little substance in terms of character development/motives, progression, world building, and odd structure/pacing that made the whole film seem off to me. The characters have no depth outside from this weird oscillation from whiny teen angst and goofy lighthearted humor which felt totally out of place. More needed to be spend on backstory/exposition and less on pointless action scenes which generally took the plot nowhere anyway. Again, I'll at least give kudos for the movie diverging from Empire somewhat and taking a few risks, though I feel that Rian Johnson almost went on TOO much of a tangent and tried to have twists JUST for the sake of having twists rather than considering serving the larger story of Star Wars. And besides, the uniqueness gets somewhat tarnished anyway by ending the movie with a scene that completely mirrors the start of Empire. This movie as a stand alone film, in a vacuum, I suppose was "OK", but in the grander scheme of things and framing it as a STAR WARS movie, it just falls completely flat and feels utterly pointless. Like, if you want to really do your own thing, as it seems apparent after watching this, cool, but why make a Star Wars movie? Let alone a MAINLINE Star Wars movie? You can be as edgy or different/separate as you want from the original canon, but at the end of the day, your film still bears the name "STAR WARS" and you have an obligation to cater to fans of this particular series that expect a certain type of story and quality, of which Johnson simply did not deliver.

I have very little desire to see Episode IX after this, as this movie basically threw the original Star Wars cannon out the window and went on too far of a tangent, to the point where I found myself asking, why should I care about this? It felt too much like a super hero movie rather than a STAR WARS movie. To those that really liked this film, I'm not trying to knock your opinion of course, to each there own. But I am genuinely curious as to why? What did you see in this that resonated with you? Because for me there was just nothing there outside of the visuals and perhaps a sort of unique take on Star Wars (which didn't really feel like Star Wars to begin with)..

Last edited by DarthMetalliCube - on 21 December 2017

 

"We hold these truths to be self-evident - all men and women created by the, go-you know.. you know the thing!" - Joe Biden

The more I think about it, the less i understand what is happening here, I think this will be remembered in the future as some kind of collective madness, a movie that was absolutely amazing getting all kinds of absolutely undeserved criticism just because its different and it takes a lot of risks, a great movie is sooner or later remembered as that and I have no doubts TLJ will be considered as that in some years but is truly amazing to watch the reactions of the people now, amazing and kind of sad too, because so many of them are pure overreactions, I always have the feeling that people is expecting Disney to ruin the franchise and despite the fact that they didn't they still looking for signs of that failure in any bold movement, so many of the issues this people has with the film make no sense from a narrative or cinematographic pov, is really mindblowing.