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Forums - Nintendo - Nintendo should teach their 3rd party supporters their file compression secrets.

Peh said:
adisababa said:

I feel like compression somehow decreases the graphical quality of the game, I mean even compressing music files decrease the sound quality so it should do the same for games. I'd rather have games in all it's 100 GB glory over a quality decrease for more system space.  

Ehm...no. That's not that kind of compression people are talking about. You don't get a loss in quality unless they put lower quality files on the disc/ cartridge. The files are compressed and will be unpacked when needed. This needs cpu resources and could lead to higher loading times.

There's a difference between lossless and lossy compression. Most every game engine already supports lossy compression for textures. It's called BCN (BC = Block Compression, the N is a number between 1 and 7, each compression being optimized for different things). BCN is also something that hardware can directly consume without any additional processing.



Currently (Re-)Playing: Starcraft 2: Legacy of the Void Multiplayer, The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past

Currently Watching: The Shield, Stein's;Gate, Narcos

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Alkibiádēs said:
Zekkyou said:

You know what isn't? The 360 version. Honestly Nintendo should just delete all trace of XCX to hide their shame.

You know what's even worse?

BotW: 13GB
GTA3: 1GB

Amazing how far Rockstar has fallen. They used to be 13 times better than Nintendo, now look at them. *shakes head sadly*

I'm making comparisons that make sense, you're just making non-sensical or even false comparisons. 

Aren't you a mod?

Compare BotW with something like Skyrim on the Switch, then we'll talk (it's around 14 GB which is acceptable, but then again, Bethesda has been the only major third party publisher that has made an effort with releasing decent games for the Switch). 

Some might say i'm make an intentionally ridiculous comparison in response to someone who dismisses any points they can't objectively respond to, and who opts to shift the discussion rather than address basic concepts like 'more complex graphics result in larger files sizes', but i assure you, those people couldn't be further from the truth.

Now if you'll excuse me, i need to make a thread angrily questioning why i have to sit around waiting for a 5.7GB SMO download when M64 was only 54MB. It's insulting behaviour from Nintendo.



MajorMalfunction said:
Peh said:

Ehm...no. That's not that kind of compression people are talking about. You don't get a loss in quality unless they put lower quality files on the disc/ cartridge. The files are compressed and will be unpacked when needed. This needs cpu resources and could lead to higher loading times.

There's a difference between lossless and lossy compression. Most every game engine already supports lossy compression for textures. It's called BCN (BC = Block Compression, the N is a number between 1 and 7, each compression being optimized for different things). BCN is also something that hardware can directly consume without any additional processing.

Not related to the topic of size and the BCN.

But there is also those techniques to "compress-not detail" that will render on lower quality what is far and will make the game lighter and also improve drawing distance, but sure some devs make mistakes on it by making the transition not be smooth and generate the popins and "out of foucs" texture.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Zekkyou said:
Alkibiádēs said:

I'm making comparisons that make sense, you're just making non-sensical or even false comparisons. 

Aren't you a mod?

Compare BotW with something like Skyrim on the Switch, then we'll talk (it's around 14 GB which is acceptable, but then again, Bethesda has been the only major third party publisher that has made an effort with releasing decent games for the Switch). 

Some might say i'm make an intentionally ridiculous comparison in response to someone who dismisses any points they can't objectively respond to, and who opts to shift the discussion rather than address basic concepts like 'more complex graphics result in larger files sizes', but i assure you, those people couldn't be further from the truth.

Now if you'll excuse me, i need to make a thread angrily questioning why i have to sit around waiting for a 5.7GB SMO download when M64 was only 54MB. It's insulting behaviour from Nintendo.

I'm perfectly fine playing Tetris with 0 download time and paltry KB size.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Alkibiádēs said:
Normchacho said:

yes, I have indeed touched a Switch game, several, including Mario Odyssey...

Is that screenshot really supposed to convince me that the visuals are on par with this?:

 

The image you shared is impressive compared to what? I mean, it's not like Crash is the only example either. Ratchet & Clank is about 2GB larger than Crash, are you going to try and argue that it shouldn't be much larger than Odyssey either?

I'm supposed to be impressed by those screenshots? Like I said, Odyssey looks better than Crash. It's only 5 GB. Not to mention the fact that those two games you mentioned only have 30 fps.

Oh boy, this is great



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DonFerrari said:
MajorMalfunction said:

There's a difference between lossless and lossy compression. Most every game engine already supports lossy compression for textures. It's called BCN (BC = Block Compression, the N is a number between 1 and 7, each compression being optimized for different things). BCN is also something that hardware can directly consume without any additional processing.

Not related to the topic of size and the BCN.

But there is also those techniques to "compress-not detail" that will render on lower quality what is far and will make the game lighter and also improve drawing distance, but sure some devs make mistakes on it by making the transition not be smooth and generate the popins and "out of foucs" texture.

Pop-in and otherwise non-smooth transitions are a problem of loading data, and selected draw distance, and are not totally related to base texture quality, if the base mipmap size is large enough. When a texture isn't fully loaded, because they no longer have to be, due to sparse virtual textures being a given this gen, the system uses a too small mipmap of the given texture, resulting in a blurry/out of focus appearance. Rage had this problem because there wasn't enough memory on the PS360 to accomodate large enough textures (2K by 2K for a 1080p screen, plus and 2-8 2K by 2K texture tiles for what you need to texture outside the viewing frustum). JPEG transcoding at runtime (JPEG to BCN) is also a thing developers do.



Currently (Re-)Playing: Starcraft 2: Legacy of the Void Multiplayer, The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past

Currently Watching: The Shield, Stein's;Gate, Narcos

TallSilhouette said:
People really underestimate how much space hours and hours of voiced dialogue take up...

I've recently posted in a similar thread about how Uncharted 3 taught me how huge of a deal this is. I think if devs did what UC3 did and allowed you to download each language pack seperately, that would save tons of space.



MajorMalfunction said:
DonFerrari said:

Not related to the topic of size and the BCN.

But there is also those techniques to "compress-not detail" that will render on lower quality what is far and will make the game lighter and also improve drawing distance, but sure some devs make mistakes on it by making the transition not be smooth and generate the popins and "out of foucs" texture.

Pop-in and otherwise non-smooth transitions are a problem of loading data, and selected draw distance, and are not totally related to base texture quality, if the base mipmap size is large enough. When a texture isn't fully loaded, because they no longer have to be, due to sparse virtual textures being a given this gen, the system uses a too small mipmap of the given texture, resulting in a blurry/out of focus appearance. Rage had this problem because there wasn't enough memory on the PS360 to accomodate large enough textures (2K by 2K for a 1080p screen, plus and 2-8 2K by 2K texture tiles for what you need to texture outside the viewing frustum). JPEG transcoding at runtime (JPEG to BCN) is also a thing developers do.

I'm not totally technical on that... but although tiling and temp resolution are fantastic to free up computational power, if you move unexpectdely then all hell break lose.

And I know it isn't related to texture quality or size, but how they decided to use it. Just posted off-topic because it remembered me on similarity on compressing/compromissing quality for size of processing.

burninmylight said:
TallSilhouette said:
People really underestimate how much space hours and hours of voiced dialogue take up...

I've recently posted in a similar thread about how Uncharted 3 taught me how huge of a deal this is. I think if devs did what UC3 did and allowed you to download each language pack seperately, that would save tons of space.

I see little reason fro devs not to offer you to keep some unnecessary data outside of your HDD and download. But it really isn't common to see what UC3 done.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari said:
burninmylight said:

I've recently posted in a similar thread about how Uncharted 3 taught me how huge of a deal this is. I think if devs did what UC3 did and allowed you to download each language pack seperately, that would save tons of space.

I see little reason fro devs not to offer you to keep some unnecessary data outside of your HDD and download. But it really isn't common to see what UC3 done.

That's the problem. It needs to get more common, especially with the Switch. If anyone wants to argue laziness on the devs' part, that's where it is.



Zekkyou said:
Alkibiádēs said:

I'm making comparisons that make sense, you're just making non-sensical or even false comparisons. 

Aren't you a mod?

Compare BotW with something like Skyrim on the Switch, then we'll talk (it's around 14 GB which is acceptable, but then again, Bethesda has been the only major third party publisher that has made an effort with releasing decent games for the Switch). 

Some might say i'm make an intentionally ridiculous comparison in response to someone who dismisses any points they can't objectively respond to, and who opts to shift the discussion rather than address basic concepts like 'more complex graphics result in larger files sizes', but i assure you, those people couldn't be further from the truth.

Now if you'll excuse me, i need to make a thread angrily questioning why i have to sit around waiting for a 5.7GB SMO download when M64 was only 54MB. It's insulting behaviour from Nintendo.

So what's so complex about Crash Bandicoot's graphics then? Extremely linear level design, fixed camera and 30 fps. Not a lot of voice acting either, yet its size is humongous compared to Nintendo's HD platformers. 

A Hat in Time takes up 5 GB yet Wind Waker HD only takes up half that space (a very similar looking game I might add). 

Sonic & Sega All Stars Racing Transformed takes up around the same amount of space as Mario Kart 8 Deluxe yet it only has 20 tracks compared to the latter's 48 tracks.



"The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must" - Thoukydides