But i don't think this ""primitive"" need to identify to a land and a culture will ever go away even in this modern age of communication, internet and globalization, unless it leads to some sort of utopia where most people are middle class, but i can't see so far into the future.

It is up to people... IN countries. Not regions or cities or buildings or houses. If something other than a country can decide for independence then I want to decide that my house can be an independent country because why can a region decide and not a family in a house they own?

And I told you my second example is a better one so forget my first business example.

And yes people in a company have the right to leave. TO LEAVE and not to take the company with them.

And nope Catalan people do not own the land (unless they bought it like I bought my house, I own my house but I CANNOT say it's independent of the country the house is in) And what about Spanish non Catalan people that bought land in Catalonia? By your logic they should be allowed to take their owned land OFF Catalonia but I'm sure Catalonia would not agree.

Well my friend if this need does not go away, if people cannot transcend their need to identify to a land and a language then I'm afraid nationalism, bids for independence, wars and division are not going away either.

If we cannot go beyond our limitations, we are, to put it bluntly: Screwed  

Cheer up lad, we've reached this point despite all the bad stuff and now there's less of it, maybe even the least there could be. Might as well enjoy it while it lasts.

You need to rethink everything you just said cause its just too absurd to leave it like that.

Then at least you are consistent with yourself. If you support someone's bid for independence inside the house or land they own then you supporting a region doing the same makes sense within your logic.

But I still disagree cause if we don't have a structure in which a country has the highest authority and last word in deciding and the lower the level (regions, cities, streets, houses)  the less the level of decision making then everything turns to chaos, independence happens everywhere and after that inevitable wars, alliances, invasions etc.. in other words: EXACTLY what the world was centuries and millennia ago.

And if I were a non Catalan Spaniard living in Catalonia and I own some land, I don't want to just vote there, I want my land to become independent from Catalonia. And as I said I am sure Catalonia would not agree or allow it. If they did then yes they'd get some logic ground for independence, but they won't let me and my Catalonian owned land become independent of them. So while you are consistent with yourself, Catalonia is not...  And before you say: I don't know that for sure, I did not ask the Catalonian government if I may buy land and declare independence from Catalonia. Well while technically true, you and I know very well they would not allow my bid for independence anymore than the Belgian government would allow my house to become independent or your government would allow your house to become independent.

I mean it's a democratic country overall. All parts of (including Catalonia) agreed to join onto the Constitution there or whatever. The concept should be if the people in Catalonia want change they should VOTE for it and get things changed through legislation

if every state in a democratic country just announced they wanted to be independent can you imagine the chaos? there is an overall military system, some form of social help for elderly / poverty, economics highly connected (say from Catalonia to the other port cities in Spain), national security (a state like Catalonia succeding is suddenly a big question mark on one side of Spain in terms of defense), etc.

it's not just black and white. Obviously there are times where breaking away from an abusive national leading party or part of a country is necessary, but I'm just not sure that was the case here, particularly when more than half of the Catalonians of voting age didn't even show up to the polls because they felt it would be illegal to do so (as far as the eyes of Mother Spain is considered).

This was just too much of a disorganized attempt voerall. If they really wanted something that would be respected and considered they should have put more time and effort into the proper channels, maybe Catalonia themselves should have made it 100% clear to their own population that they would not be seriously considering independence unless it was proven that the majority of their own population actually really is willing to fight and back it. When the polls/election for the vote happens and less than half of the voters show up.... that suggests to me that it was far from clear that what was going on was okay or supported by the mass of Catalonia

In the end is independence really necessary in this case anyway? I think the primary topic of conversation is taxation, and, sure, one could argue that's a big factor (the United States used it for their war for independence for example)- but there are so many things into play. People who live in Catalonia have family all over in the rest of Spain and the entirety of the country is not that big. It's not like the United States breaking off from Britain who was an ocean away.

I think this is a scenario where the government in Catalonia should not have been proclaiming independence but more they should have been trying to demand more talks with Madrid regarding adjustments on the taxation. Seems like things jumped the gun a bit.

anyone with common sense knows that a Federation of states, a Republic, whatever, is not going to just allow states to break off whenever they please. It's a big deal and something that needs discussion and time. Just like it was a big deal to sign onto a constitution and agree to be part of united Spain in the first place.

some people act like a country coming together or breaking apart is a simple as signing one piece of paper. There are so many other things that come into play when you have a smaller government so strongly connected with a larger one. And in the end it may or may not even be in the best interest of the average citizen of Catalonia to be seperate from Spain. Sure- the tax thing might be better- but you better be certain that if Catalonia was seperate from Spain they'd end up with far less favorable a situation as far as trading and fees with the rest of Spain. Obviously any country is going to give favorable deals to domestic businesses/trade rather than to those outside of their borders. Just pointing out the obvious.

People don't suddenly want independence. Nationalism is like an instinct, it's srongly rooted in people, it's part of that primitive section of their brain like tribalism, cults and ceremonial behavior. People need to overcome that part of themselves but so far they can't and they give in to it and against common sense they want division rather than union.

Groups wanting independence may be different from single individuals wanting independence but if your argument is that the people are the ones to decide unilaterally then there is no reason individuals should not have the right to be independent in the land they own. I don't want my country's law applying in my house. I want to make my own laws.

And why would nationalism start wars eventually? Because that's what humans do, sooner or later they see a neighbor as a threat or they covet their neighbor's riches or they just want to expand their land. In a totally divided Europe where every small region is independent, who's to stop war? If a small state attacks another small state, the other small states will likely stay out cause it's none of their business and even if they intervene by making alliances the outcome will still be war but on a bigger scale.

Did you not notice how Europe has been at war for 90% of its history? Did you not notice how the EU as been (militarily speaking) at peace inside of its territory for 100% of its existence? Granted its existence is still short compared to the rest of Europe's history but more than 60 years of peace should be considered a valid and strong case for union vs division.

I think the issue here is that you lack vision, you need to step back and look at the big picture, my friend. And not just at some local nationalisms and their personal and selfish motivations.

We have a motto here in Belgium that is sadly being drowned by Flemish nationalism. And that motto is "L'union fait la force" or "Union makes us stronger".  And I do believe it would make us stronger... If only we could be wise enough to apply it.

Nationalism is bad when local and union gives birth to supranationalism. I defend supranationalism and not basic nationalism, if you really want me to break down my argument in more detail. Why do you seek contradictions where there are none?

Nations should NOT fall apart, if they do we'd find ourselves centuries back when small nations and kingdoms were at constant war with each other, almost all of the time.

The Union is the major reason there is no war in Europe. Neither democracy nor technology nor globalization can stop war and divison if there is no union. You have wars in Africa, in muslim countries, in poor countries NOW in this technological and globalized world and even in so called democratic countries over there. And dictators oppress and forcefully unite by terror and force EXACTLY because there is division and weakness through division. Countries in Africa are often at war with each other, through single countries or alliances, they invade each other all the time, through INDEPENDENT militias that raid villages and murder people all over the place. How can you not see that?

They "do their own thing" in those countries at war (ironic how you use those words and how they apply perfectly to those war riddled places).

If you don't want to see that division is the past and union is the future, we are, I'm afraid, at odds permanently so I think we are going to have to agree to disagree as they say.

There is nothing to gain from war in Europe EXCEPT that before the EU and union of countries we were at war like ALL THE TIME. It's downright dishonest to ignore this hard-core fact.

Techology and globalisation was in your argument the reason for peace but now you can't use those so you fall back to "democracy" or lack thereof in those countries. Well let me tackle that argument too: Germany was democratic, Hitler was elected by the people over there and that did not stop war, the US is democratic and that did not stop them from dropping nuclear bombs on civilians on purpose in 1945 or from invading VietNam for political reasons and so on...

And before you disagree with that or make me break down my argument into finer details, let me say that I'm NOT saying democracy is nothing or that it does not play a role in peace because it does but in and of itself it is not what brings a lasting peace. Union is what brings peace and I don't mean union through invasions and war like you see in African countries, I mean a peaceful union of people that may not think exactly alike, people with differences yes, but mostly people with a lot of common ground as is the case in Europe. the EU is literally the best idea anyone in Europe has had in the past two millennia and the only threat to that great idea is nationalism and the division it produces because some people think division and borders is so much better than union and common land.