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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Metroid: Samus Returns is FANTASTIC so What's Next for 2D Metroid?

 

What should Metroid 5 be?

2D 38 26.95%
 
2.5D 40 28.37%
 
3D 25 17.73%
 
4D 38 26.95%
 
Total:141
Alkibiádēs said:
MTZehvor said:

I'd highly recommend playing the game, or at the very least, seeing if you can look at a friend who's playing it or something; the game legitimately looks much better running on a 3DS than the upscaled screenshots online can communicate. You can't really get a real feel for what it looks like just by looking at screens. I can't speak for the comparison to Hollow Knight, as I haven't gotten a chance to play it yet, but I would say without hesitation that Samus Returns looks better than Zero Mission. It's that significant of a difference from screenshot to actual game running.

On top of that, the gameplay is so on point (I'd argue the best Metroidvania title in at least a decade) that it would be worth playing even if it was just straight up stick figure art or something.

I'm not saying the gameplay is bad, that part looks good, but for me, art-style is everything in a Metroidvania game. It sets the tone. That's why I love Steamworld Dig 2 and why I'm very eager to get into Hollow Knight. 

That seems more than a little bit shallow to me, but regardless, I'd still recommend looking at Samus Returns in action on a 3DS (see if a friend has it or something) before judging it. Screenshots really don't do it justice; it's much more visually impressive in game.



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Alkibiádēs said:
MTZehvor said:

I'd highly recommend playing the game, or at the very least, seeing if you can look at a friend who's playing it or something; the game legitimately looks much better running on a 3DS than the upscaled screenshots online can communicate. You can't really get a real feel for what it looks like just by looking at screens. I can't speak for the comparison to Hollow Knight, as I haven't gotten a chance to play it yet, but I would say without hesitation that Samus Returns looks better than Zero Mission. It's that significant of a difference from screenshot to actual game running.

On top of that, the gameplay is so on point (I'd argue the best Metroidvania title in at least a decade) that it would be worth playing even if it was just straight up stick figure art or something.

I'm not saying the gameplay is bad, that part looks good, but for me, art-style is everything in a Metroidvania game. It sets the tone. That's why I love Steamworld Dig 2 and why I'm very eager to get into Hollow Knight. 

I own a 3DS and there's not a single game on it that I think looks even remotely pretty. Too many polygonal games, I wish Nintendo didn't abandon sprite-based graphics. 

Many GBA games look better to me than 3DS games, and that's a difference of two generations... I'm so happy the Switch is an actual powerful handheld. 

Honestly, you are starting to sound like a graphic whore, not the usual kind of graphic whore, but still a graphic whore. Pretty artstyles are not fundamental to set the tone, have you ever played Silent Hill 1? Or Lone Survivor? SR looks AAA for 3DS standars and it sets the tone fine, both graphically and musically,  specially with the 3D on.

Also, not a single 3DS game looks remotely pretty... Are you saying Mario 3D Land looks ugly? or Monster Hunter Stories? Meanwhile you praise Steamworld Dig graphics, I may have to remember you the first game was also released on 3DS, just as Shovel Knight a game you recently defined as awesome.



Alkibiádēs said:
Comparing this to the Prime games is an insult.

Did you play Samus Returns already? Personally i had more fun with SR than i ever had with Prime 2.

MTZehvor said:

I think to respond effectively we need to take a step back from looking at just Prime's style of storytelling and examine storytelling in games in general. Basically every video game that attempts to tell a somewhat coherent story requires the game to come to a halt; be it through cutscene, speech boxes, or dialogue trees like Fallout or Mass Effect. Gameplay gets brought to a halt regardless with any of these options, and if your concern is that you're slowing down the flow of gameplay, any of these is going to be an issue.

Then you have titles like Samus Returns and Super Metroid, which tell their stories basically entirely through environmental cues. It should be noted that, with one or two exceptions towards the end, the cutscenes in Samus Returns are entirely unrelated to the narrative; they're almost exclusively used to either introduce an enemy that you are about to fight or show that an enemy you were fighting is now dead. The reason Samus Returns can tell its story without cutscenes or basically any text is that it's a pretty simple narrative; Samus is given a mission to kill all the Metroids on SR-388, and the actual in game story basically boils down to "Samus goes ahead and kills all those Metroids." You don't need much in the way of storytelling aids like cutscenes or text boxes to help communicate that. But video games that want to tell a more complex story than that will need those storytelling aids to effectively get their narrative across. Try all you want; you're not going to be able to effectively communicate the plot of, say, Fire Emblem or Fallout simply by "showing." There has to be a degree of telling involved.

The Prime games take what is, in my opinion, a genius approach that almost serves as a compromise between these two methods of storytelling. There is a simple story on the surface of each of the Prime games that the player can follow without scanning any lore or enemies at all; in other words, you don't need to scan to understand what is happening in the main narrative. For Prime 1, it's Samus tracking a distress signal to Tallon IV, and then basically spending the rest of the game looking for Ridley and disrupting Pirate Operations wherever she finds them. For Prime 2, it's Samus trying to help save the Luminoth and destroy the Ing. For Prime 3, it's Samus destroying the Leviathans and ending the threat of Phazon. If you feel so inclined, you can totally avoid scanning and still understand the main narrative of the game without a reading a single bit of lore.

What makes the Prime approach so great, in my opinion, is that for the people who enjoy the reading, there's an entire library's worth of totally optional backstory to be found that can improve your experience with the game. The Prime Trilogy largely manages to accomplish this level of optionality by making the scan logs largely focus on backstory, while the cutscenes that the player encounters throughout the game are the real meat of the narrative. The scan logs help to supplement the game's main narrative of "Samus going to a place and killing things" by providing additional context to the location and the things she is killing, but again, it's optional. If you find it boring, go ahead and skip it. You'll be left with a story that's about as simplistic as you'll find in Samus Returns, and, hey, if that's what you want, more power to you. But for those of us who enjoy the prospect of some more complexity to things, I don't see a good reason to not have it.

In your case, if you enjoy learning about the enemies but find the lore boring, then hey, just stick to scanning the enemies. If the game's backstory isn't interesting to you, then feel free to ignore it. It's not required to enjoy the game. You don't need to stop at all if you don't want to. With the possible exception of understanding why Samus would go into the Impact Core at the end of Prime 1, everything that Samus does in the Prime series is logical and understandable with or without scanning.

I'm also going to disagree with your assessment of Prime 3, because Prime 3 has arguably the most complex lore in the Trilogy, and, at the very least, is certainly far more complex than Prime 2's. There's quite a few twists and turns in the story of the ancient Bryyonian civilization, and the story of Skytown's Elysians is very indepth on its own, to say nothing of the backstory provided by the Pirates on their homeworld. Prime 3's lore may have taken a backseat due to the heavier focus on cutscenes, but it's by no means simplistic.

The good thing about scanning in the Prime games is that it's mostly optional so you can choose to skip all this lore, story and long text if you feel like it like i always did. But if were talking about 2D Metroid scanning has never been the approach of storytelling in these games, neither did cutscenes until Fusion but that's obviously because back in the early 90's story in videogames wasn't as important as it is today especially due to hardware limitations.

If Metroid 5 is going to tell us an interesting story then the show and tell approach would be the best approach much like Metroid Fusion did but with skippable cutscenes and a good balance between tight gameplay and good narrative. 

Pemalite said:

Umm. If Nintendo didn't make the game, doesn't that mean Nintendo shouldn't be the one credited with it's success? MercurySteam should be?
Ergo, Nintendo hasn't "regained" any magic.

Nintendo's stance on AM2R was bullshit. They should have hired the developer and licensed and released the game proper.

Mar1217 said:

2) I'm expecting a remake of Super Metroid, if there ever was to be a new 2D Metroid game to be honest.



Super Metroid is a perfect game.
Re-release it, possibly update the visuals... (I don't think it even needs a visual update!) But leave it the hell alone.

Make a completely new damn game instead.

Nintendo aided MS with creating Samus Returns and MS said Nintendo made them a better developer, Nintendo deserves every bit of praise for this game.

AM2R is a great game but i'll have to applaud Nintendo for finally coming up with their own remake of Metroid 2.

Super Metroid is indeed perfect and Nintendo should just create a new Metroid game already.

Goodnightmoon said:
Alkibiádēs said:

I'm not saying the gameplay is bad, that part looks good, but for me, art-style is everything in a Metroidvania game. It sets the tone. That's why I love Steamworld Dig 2 and why I'm very eager to get into Hollow Knight. 

I own a 3DS and there's not a single game on it that I think looks even remotely pretty. Too many polygonal games, I wish Nintendo didn't abandon sprite-based graphics. 

Many GBA games look better to me than 3DS games, and that's a difference of two generations... I'm so happy the Switch is an actual powerful handheld. 

Honestly, you are starting to sound like a graphic whore, not the usual kind of graphic whore, but still a graphic whore. Pretty artstyles are not fundamental to set the tone, have you ever played Silent Hill 1? Or Lone Survivor? SR looks AAA for 3DS standars and it sets the tone fine, both graphically and musically,  specially with the 3D on.

Also, not a single 3DS game looks remotely pretty... Are you saying Mario 3D Land looks ugly? or Monster Hunter Stories? Meanwhile you praise Steamworld Dig graphics, I may have to remember you the first game was also released on 3DS, just as Shovel Knight a game you recently defined as awesome.

agreed.



Snoorlax said:

Nintendo aided MS with creating Samus Returns and MS said Nintendo made them a better developer, Nintendo deserves every bit of praise for this game.

I disagree. Nintendo may have just been an advisory to the entire development process or maybe even less than that.
I mean... RARE helped Double Helix with the development of Killer Instinct, but they were only providing advisory assistance rather than anything actually tangible.
Double Helix is the one that is still credited with the development of that game... And rightfully so.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Snoorlax said:

MTZehvor said:

I think to respond effectively we need to take a step back from looking at just Prime's style of storytelling and examine storytelling in games in general. Basically every video game that attempts to tell a somewhat coherent story requires the game to come to a halt; be it through cutscene, speech boxes, or dialogue trees like Fallout or Mass Effect. Gameplay gets brought to a halt regardless with any of these options, and if your concern is that you're slowing down the flow of gameplay, any of these is going to be an issue.

Then you have titles like Samus Returns and Super Metroid, which tell their stories basically entirely through environmental cues. It should be noted that, with one or two exceptions towards the end, the cutscenes in Samus Returns are entirely unrelated to the narrative; they're almost exclusively used to either introduce an enemy that you are about to fight or show that an enemy you were fighting is now dead. The reason Samus Returns can tell its story without cutscenes or basically any text is that it's a pretty simple narrative; Samus is given a mission to kill all the Metroids on SR-388, and the actual in game story basically boils down to "Samus goes ahead and kills all those Metroids." You don't need much in the way of storytelling aids like cutscenes or text boxes to help communicate that. But video games that want to tell a more complex story than that will need those storytelling aids to effectively get their narrative across. Try all you want; you're not going to be able to effectively communicate the plot of, say, Fire Emblem or Fallout simply by "showing." There has to be a degree of telling involved.

The Prime games take what is, in my opinion, a genius approach that almost serves as a compromise between these two methods of storytelling. There is a simple story on the surface of each of the Prime games that the player can follow without scanning any lore or enemies at all; in other words, you don't need to scan to understand what is happening in the main narrative. For Prime 1, it's Samus tracking a distress signal to Tallon IV, and then basically spending the rest of the game looking for Ridley and disrupting Pirate Operations wherever she finds them. For Prime 2, it's Samus trying to help save the Luminoth and destroy the Ing. For Prime 3, it's Samus destroying the Leviathans and ending the threat of Phazon. If you feel so inclined, you can totally avoid scanning and still understand the main narrative of the game without a reading a single bit of lore.

What makes the Prime approach so great, in my opinion, is that for the people who enjoy the reading, there's an entire library's worth of totally optional backstory to be found that can improve your experience with the game. The Prime Trilogy largely manages to accomplish this level of optionality by making the scan logs largely focus on backstory, while the cutscenes that the player encounters throughout the game are the real meat of the narrative. The scan logs help to supplement the game's main narrative of "Samus going to a place and killing things" by providing additional context to the location and the things she is killing, but again, it's optional. If you find it boring, go ahead and skip it. You'll be left with a story that's about as simplistic as you'll find in Samus Returns, and, hey, if that's what you want, more power to you. But for those of us who enjoy the prospect of some more complexity to things, I don't see a good reason to not have it.

In your case, if you enjoy learning about the enemies but find the lore boring, then hey, just stick to scanning the enemies. If the game's backstory isn't interesting to you, then feel free to ignore it. It's not required to enjoy the game. You don't need to stop at all if you don't want to. With the possible exception of understanding why Samus would go into the Impact Core at the end of Prime 1, everything that Samus does in the Prime series is logical and understandable with or without scanning.

I'm also going to disagree with your assessment of Prime 3, because Prime 3 has arguably the most complex lore in the Trilogy, and, at the very least, is certainly far more complex than Prime 2's. There's quite a few twists and turns in the story of the ancient Bryyonian civilization, and the story of Skytown's Elysians is very indepth on its own, to say nothing of the backstory provided by the Pirates on their homeworld. Prime 3's lore may have taken a backseat due to the heavier focus on cutscenes, but it's by no means simplistic.

The good thing about scanning in the Prime games is that it's mostly optional so you can choose to skip all this lore, story and long text if you feel like it like i always did. But if were talking about 2D Metroid scanning has never been the approach of storytelling in these games, neither did cutscenes until Fusion but that's obviously because back in the early 90's story in videogames wasn't as important as it is today especially due to hardware limitations.

If Metroid 5 is going to tell us an interesting story then the show and tell approach would be the best approach much like Metroid Fusion did but with skippable cutscenes and a good balance between tight gameplay and good narrative. 

I won't disagree with the emphasis on show vs. tell, although I'd question your holding up Fusion, by far the most "tell" heavy Metroid game besides Other M, as an example of the concept. With that said, I think it would largely depend on what story they want to tell, and, to reference this back to the original point of the conversation, if it's going to be focus on the rebel Chozo faction, then the game is probably going to require a significant amount of telling to satisfy those of us who are more interested in the series' lore. While official 2D Metroid games have never included scanning before, there's a great example of it how it can be implemented well in AM2R, and while I do prefer SR slightly to AM2R, I think the scans are a major advantage that the fan game has over the official one.

I think the ideal scenario if they choose to pursue that storyline would be a very Prime-esque approach to narrative structure, regardless of whether it's 2D or 3D. Have a game with a relative easy to follow storyline on the surface, with optional ways to sate the curiosity of those who really enjoy the series' lore and want to see it expanded upon. Scanning is the best method I've seen so far of this sort of optional storytelling, but I'd be open to different ideas if I thought they were capable of expounding upon a similar amount of backstory.



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Pemalite said:
Snoorlax said:

Nintendo aided MS with creating Samus Returns and MS said Nintendo made them a better developer, Nintendo deserves every bit of praise for this game.

I disagree. Nintendo may have just been an advisory to the entire development process or maybe even less than that.
I mean... RARE helped Double Helix with the development of Killer Instinct, but they were only providing advisory assistance rather than anything actually tangible.
Double Helix is the one that is still credited with the development of that game... And rightfully so.

I think most of us expected this game to be shit just by mentioning it's developer so either way it's a good thing NIntendo stepped in. By the way it's a good thing you mentioned Rare.

Remember before Rare joined Nintendo? They were good, after joining Nintendo? They became legendary, after joining Microsoft? They became shit.



MTZehvor said:
Snoorlax said:

The good thing about scanning in the Prime games is that it's mostly optional so you can choose to skip all this lore, story and long text if you feel like it like i always did. But if were talking about 2D Metroid scanning has never been the approach of storytelling in these games, neither did cutscenes until Fusion but that's obviously because back in the early 90's story in videogames wasn't as important as it is today especially due to hardware limitations.

If Metroid 5 is going to tell us an interesting story then the show and tell approach would be the best approach much like Metroid Fusion did but with skippable cutscenes and a good balance between tight gameplay and good narrative. 

I won't disagree with the emphasis on show vs. tell, although I'd question your holding up Fusion, by far the most "tell" heavy Metroid game besides Other M, as an example of the concept. With that said, I think it would largely depend on what story they want to tell, and, to reference this back to the original point of the conversation, if it's going to be focus on the rebel Chozo faction, then the game is probably going to require a significant amount of telling to satisfy those of us who are more interested in the series' lore. While official 2D Metroid games have never included scanning before, there's a great example of it how it can be implemented well in AM2R, and while I do prefer SR slightly to AM2R, I think the scans are a major advantage that the fan game has over the official one.

I think the ideal scenario if they choose to pursue that storyline would be a very Prime-esque approach to narrative structure, regardless of whether it's 2D or 3D. Have a game with a relative easy to follow storyline on the surface, with optional ways to sate the curiosity of those who really enjoy the series' lore and want to see it expanded upon. Scanning is the best method I've seen so far of this sort of optional storytelling, but I'd be open to different ideas if I thought they were capable of expounding upon a similar amount of backstory.

Fair enough we all have our preferences however i'm sure most people remember Fusion because of it's "tell heavy" plot (and linearity) whereas pretty much nobody talks about Prime's story. One of the main reasons Metroid Dread is so desired because of the plot, we want to know how Samus' story continues so Fusion actually succeeded by ending on such a cliffhanger with is storytelling the real problem was it's forced linearity, i really don't mind linearity especially not in Fusion since it's still an awesome game but it could have used less handholding like SR.

If they fix that and continue the story Metroid Dread would be perfect.



Finished it. I thought it was a fantastic game, worthy of the Metroid franchise, and pretty much needed after years without a really good Metroid game. I'm happy about MercurySteam too. It might be the most important game (imho, because I'm a Metroid fan lol) made in my country, and they did a really good job. Boss battles were stellar in this game, that part was nailed. The soundtrack (except for the beginning song, which was a bit OTT imho, but that was a minor issue) and the atmosphere is top-notch, as expected from a Metroid game. Things to improve? I prefer a less linear level design, with more shortcuts and everything inter-connected if possible. Counter-attack is cool but it can be improved. Wall jumping was meh. And I'd change the Aeion Scan hability for map stations as always. Also, the Metroid genocide can be a bit repetitive, although they did a good job changing his attack patterns to make it less repetitive. I'm still not sold on the 2.5D nature of the game, I'm not sure if I prefer 2D sprites, but I'm still thinking about it. I mean, I think 2.5D works in this game because of the 3D, which adds depth to the environment. A whole lot. But for a possible Switch Metroid game, I'm not sure if 2.5D would work better. But it was a pretty good game overall. Now, I'm going for 100%.

Also...

Was that Meta Ridley from Prime? Is it the first time a 2D Metroid game makes a reference to the Prime franchise? What an epic fight nevertheless.



mZuzek said:
Volterra_90 said:

Finished it. I thought it was a fantastic game, worthy of the Metroid franchise, and pretty much needed after years without a really good Metroid game. I'm happy about MercurySteam too. It might be the most important game (imho, because I'm a Metroid fan lol) made in my country, and they did a really good job. Boss battles were stellar in this game, that part was nailed. The soundtrack (except for the beginning song, which was a bit OTT imho, but that was a minor issue) and the atmosphere is top-notch, as expected from a Metroid game. Things to improve? I prefer a less linear level design, with more shortcuts and everything inter-connected if possible. Counter-attack is cool but it can be improved. Wall jumping was meh. And I'd change the Aeion Scan hability for map stations as always. Also, the Metroid genocide can be a bit repetitive, although they did a good job changing his attack patterns to make it less repetitive. I'm still not sold on the 2.5D nature of the game, I'm not sure if I prefer 2D sprites, but I'm still thinking about it. I mean, I think 2.5D works in this game because of the 3D, which adds depth to the environment. A whole lot. But for a possible Switch Metroid game, I'm not sure if 2.5D would work better. But it was a pretty good game overall. Now, I'm going for 100%.

Also...

Was that Meta Ridley from Prime? Is it the first time a 2D Metroid game makes a reference to the Prime franchise? What an epic fight nevertheless.

It's officially called "Proteus Ridley" (not sure why), but I guess they tried to design him so he'd look like an in-between between Meta/Omega Ridley and Ridley from Super, which makes sense chronologically.

Yep, those were exactly my thoughts. It was a really, really interesting and cool ending.

Now, guys, I'm oficially more hyped about a possible Metroid 5 than I'm about Metroid Prime 4. Not sure why. But I hope Nintendo gives MercurySteam a chance to make it from zero (though this game seems like it has not a lot in common with Metroid 2).



Pemalite said:

Mar1217 said:

2) I'm expecting a remake of Super Metroid, if there ever was to be a new 2D Metroid game to be honest.



Super Metroid is a perfect game.
Re-release it, possibly update the visuals... (I don't think it even needs a visual update!) But leave it the hell alone.

Make a completely new damn game instead.

@bolded: Totally agree.

As for the re-release part, something along those lines would be glorious:

For comparison's sake: