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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Metroid: Samus Returns is FANTASTIC so What's Next for 2D Metroid?

 

What should Metroid 5 be?

2D 38 26.95%
 
2.5D 40 28.37%
 
3D 25 17.73%
 
4D 38 26.95%
 
Total:141
Snoorlax said:
Pemalite said:

Rare isn't "shit". They still make solid games that are still actually enjoyable, I feel you just took the opportunity to attack the developer.

I mean, they are not as great as they once were mind you as allot of the people left the company... But games like Kameo, Viva Pinata and hell, even Nuts and Bolts were enjoyable.
With that, your statement doesn't change the fact that RARE provided input into probably one of the best fighters of this console generation, but also doesn't get to take credit for it as they aren't the developer.

Why would i attack them, i'm just calling them out for their mediocrity over the past 2 decades what successful game franchise they created was really only Kinect Sports and even that was a knock off of Wii Sports and it's already died off.

You are conflating two different issues.
Sales aka. The "Success" of a game doesn't equate to how good a game inherently is and thus how good a developer inherently is.

I can give you plenty of examples where a highly rated game has flopped due to sales *cough*Sacrifice*cough*. - That developer was still great, the game was still great.

Rare still makes solid titles, are they genre leading like they used to be? Most certainly not, but they are still solid titles.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

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MTZehvor said:
Snoorlax said:

I know Prime fans get offended by this but i don't think the Prime game take place in the same timeline as the 2D games.

They're spinoffs but yeah that "final boss" fight was epic though it wasn't really neccessary imho but on the other hand the Queen Metroid fight was kinda lackluster. AM2R certaintly handled that part much better.

I was around at the Prime fanbase, of course they would talk about what the sequel would be about and also the hint of that Hunter's spaceship at the end of Prime 3 gave a lot of speculation yet still, nobody really talks about the Prime games for their story because it just isn't as developed like in other games like in Zelda or even Mario.

Prime 3 tried to tell a Halo like space opera and it didn't make me care one bit about any of the characters other than Samus and Ridley. Fusion, the intro of Super and Other M makes clear why Samus is on her mission and what or who is important to her. The Prime games just start and end within their own world without making any connections to other games other than the original which barely has any story to begin with. You could say theyre just open ended and can fit anywhere depending on the player's interpretation.

Say whatever you want about Other M but, believe it or not, its thanks to Other M that Fusion got recognised for it's brilliance and the whole "canonicity" got taken more seriously even though it was controversial and "divided the fanbase" which in reality has always been a mess of community. Fusion finally found it's audience even though it's still has a lot of people in the fanbase who don't like it but compared to how despised it was, it sure took it's time to get the attention it deserved but it finally got there and the interest in the series' chronology was revived. Now im just waiting for Metroid 5.

To the former point, Prime is considered in the same timeline as the 2D games, according to a booklet detailing the series included with the SNES classic edition that launched recently.

To the second point, I'd disagree with that vehemently. The lore of the Prime games is probably the most heavily discussed component of the series' story that isn't directly focused on sequels or just discussions related to Other M. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by development, but I'm not sure there's any story aspect that Mario or Zelda come close to touching Metroid in. Story is a far more common point of discussion in the Metroid series, at least if the series' respective reddit pages are anything to go by, and Prime related discussion makes up a sizable portion of that.

Prime 3, I would argue, is arguably the most misunderstood Metroid game out there, and this is one thing that the Geek Critique absolutely nailed in his review of it. The point was never to make you care about any of the other hunters, or any character in the game besides Samus. The point is to establish characters (particularly the Hunters) as rivals and characters with at least comparable power to Samus, so that when they become corrupted, you're left in a position of "Wow, these guys couldn't handle Phazon; I better be careful myself." It's meant to demonstrate the corruptive power of Phazon, not make you feel sorry for people.

Finally...nah. I'll go with the "not" on the "believe it or not." Metroid's story was and has always been a major point of discussion among fans, and Other M did nothing but create divisions that didn't exist before and got people arguing about the narrative instead of calmly discussing it. Fusion's story was just as well understood and liked before as it was after.

Interesting, so both series are canon so the fans can stop bitching though i'm sure they're going to retcon sooner or later.

The lore? yes, the story? only if it's very minimal like in Prime 1 and 2. If it's a forced weak story like Prime 3 then no, in fact, this is one of the main critiques Prime 3 got weak story, uninteresting characters and linear gameplay.

Are you even serious..? Zelda is the number one Nintendo game that got unlimited discussions about it's plot, it's characters, the different worlds, confusing timelines, weapons analisis you name it. Reddit? i dare say the whole net is filled with Zelda discussions about ANYTHING Zelda including on this site. And while Mario stories don't get taken too seriously i think Mario RPG, Paper Mario and Galaxy garnered more than enough plot related discussions than the entire Metroid series...

Prime 3 is not misunderstood it was well received by both fans and critics despite it's shortcomings and it's considered to be the last good Metroid game after 2007. The game does want you to care about these Hunters and story, that's why the cutscenes are unskippable and contstantly reminding you that the Hunters and the General are aiding Samus on this mission, later you're supposed to kill them and feel sorry for them, at least that's what they tried to do when that ice Hunter (forgot the name) was killed. 

What makes the Hunters so special using Phazon when litteraly EVERY enemy in the game gets infected with Phazon? Oh, and how do you kill them? By shooting them with overpowered unlimited Phazon beam, another weak detail of the game.

Finally, yah... Metroid Fusion is the Majora's Mask of Metroid. The sequel to one of the best games of all time that was expected to be the same game but expanded and improved upon instead came out to be totally different than what everybody was expecting and for being different it was met with dissapointment. While it got great critic reviews fans didn't consider the game to be a worthy successor especially not with the release of Prime which turned out to be a masterpiece and surprised everybody. It wasn't until YEARS after that Fusion got appreciated and the respect that it deserves.



The mainline series is 2D. I want Metroid 5 as soon as possible!



Pemalite said:
Snoorlax said:

Why would i attack them, i'm just calling them out for their mediocrity over the past 2 decades what successful game franchise they created was really only Kinect Sports and even that was a knock off of Wii Sports and it's already died off.

You are conflating two different issues.
Sales aka. The "Success" of a game doesn't equate to how good a game inherently is and thus how good a developer inherently is.

I can give you plenty of examples where a highly rated game has flopped due to sales *cough*Sacrifice*cough*. - That developer was still great, the game was still great.

Rare still makes solid titles, are they genre leading like they used to be? Most certainly not, but they are still solid titles.

What is the "inherent " proof of a game's goodness?  High score on metacritic?  That can be bought, we have proof from Gamespot's Kane & Lynch fiasco.

High user score on metacritic?  Maybe, but not everyone participates in metacritic.

I think sales are as good a measure of quality as anything else.  As for Rare, I have a soft spot for the company, but I admit they've lost it a bit.  The new piratey game looks kind of interesting, tho.



Snoorlax said:

Interesting, so both series are canon so the fans can stop bitching though i'm sure they're going to retcon sooner or later.

The lore? yes, the story? only if it's very minimal like in Prime 1 and 2. If it's a forced weak story like Prime 3 then no, in fact, this is one of the main critiques Prime 3 got weak story, uninteresting characters and linear gameplay.

Are you even serious..? Zelda is the number one Nintendo game that got unlimited discussions about it's plot, it's characters, the different worlds, confusing timelines, weapons analisis you name it. Reddit? i dare say the whole net is filled with Zelda discussions about ANYTHING Zelda including on this site. And while Mario stories don't get taken too seriously i think Mario RPG, Paper Mario and Galaxy garnered more than enough plot related discussions than the entire Metroid series...

Prime 3 is not misunderstood it was well received by both fans and critics despite it's shortcomings and it's considered to be the last good Metroid game after 2007. The game does want you to care about these Hunters and story, that's why the cutscenes are unskippable and contstantly reminding you that the Hunters and the General are aiding Samus on this mission, later you're supposed to kill them and feel sorry for them, at least that's what they tried to do when that ice Hunter (forgot the name) was killed. 

What makes the Hunters so special using Phazon when litteraly EVERY enemy in the game gets infected with Phazon? Oh, and how do you kill them? By shooting them with overpowered unlimited Phazon beam, another weak detail of the game.

Finally, yah... Metroid Fusion is the Majora's Mask of Metroid. The sequel to one of the best games of all time that was expected to be the same game but expanded and improved upon instead came out to be totally different than what everybody was expecting and for being different it was met with dissapointment. While it got great critic reviews fans didn't consider the game to be a worthy successor especially not with the release of Prime which turned out to be a masterpiece and surprised everybody. It wasn't until YEARS after that Fusion got appreciated and the respect that it deserves.

To the Zelda/Mario story point, I'll put it to you this way. As of the time of this post's creation, out of the 25 posts on the front page of r/Zelda, only two are even remotely related to the series' story. And one is simply asking if the encylopedia is considered canon. On the Super Mario reddit, that number drops to 0. And these aren't one off occurrances; story discussions rarely reach the front page. Whether that's because not enough people create topics to have that happen, or they're just not popular enough, I can't say, but your claim about story discussion popularity doesn't seem to hold up under examination.

As for the hunters, again, I'll disagree. If Retro really wanted you to feel anything for them (besides possibly Rundas, I'll grant that), they'd actually give them more than 5 minutes of screen time. I think arguing that Retro really meant for the player to get attached to Admiral Dane, Ghor, or Gandrayda, with such minimal screen time, is kind of an insult to the company. As for what makes the Hunters specifically important in that regard compared to every other enemy being infected, it has to do with the power level of the enemy. We've already seen plenty of less powerful enemies be corrupted by Phazon throughout the previous two Prime games; showing even more random Space Pirates or wildlife get corrupted wouldn't be particularly meaningful. Establishing some other bounty hunters to be at least close to Samus' power level, and then showing them get messed up as well, is a far more effective way to communicate to the player that Phazon is something to worry about.

Lastly...Fusion is nowhere near the Majora's Mask of Metroid. The game has a 9.1 average user rating on Metacritic, for the love of biscuit. This game isn't some critic darling, fanbase disliked title like Skyward Sword. Sure, there's a portion of the fanbase that feels Fusion was subpar, but the same is true for any departure of any sort in the Metroid series; including Prime 3 and Samus Returns. Fusion has always been reasonably well liked, and it hasn't seen any sort of dramatic increase in popularity due to Other M.



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MTZehvor said:
Snoorlax said:

Interesting, so both series are canon so the fans can stop bitching though i'm sure they're going to retcon sooner or later.

The lore? yes, the story? only if it's very minimal like in Prime 1 and 2. If it's a forced weak story like Prime 3 then no, in fact, this is one of the main critiques Prime 3 got weak story, uninteresting characters and linear gameplay.

Are you even serious..? Zelda is the number one Nintendo game that got unlimited discussions about it's plot, it's characters, the different worlds, confusing timelines, weapons analisis you name it. Reddit? i dare say the whole net is filled with Zelda discussions about ANYTHING Zelda including on this site. And while Mario stories don't get taken too seriously i think Mario RPG, Paper Mario and Galaxy garnered more than enough plot related discussions than the entire Metroid series...

Prime 3 is not misunderstood it was well received by both fans and critics despite it's shortcomings and it's considered to be the last good Metroid game after 2007. The game does want you to care about these Hunters and story, that's why the cutscenes are unskippable and contstantly reminding you that the Hunters and the General are aiding Samus on this mission, later you're supposed to kill them and feel sorry for them, at least that's what they tried to do when that ice Hunter (forgot the name) was killed. 

What makes the Hunters so special using Phazon when litteraly EVERY enemy in the game gets infected with Phazon? Oh, and how do you kill them? By shooting them with overpowered unlimited Phazon beam, another weak detail of the game.

Finally, yah... Metroid Fusion is the Majora's Mask of Metroid. The sequel to one of the best games of all time that was expected to be the same game but expanded and improved upon instead came out to be totally different than what everybody was expecting and for being different it was met with dissapointment. While it got great critic reviews fans didn't consider the game to be a worthy successor especially not with the release of Prime which turned out to be a masterpiece and surprised everybody. It wasn't until YEARS after that Fusion got appreciated and the respect that it deserves.

To the Zelda/Mario story point, I'll put it to you this way. As of the time of this post's creation, out of the 25 posts on the front page of r/Zelda, only two are even remotely related to the series' story. And one is simply asking if the encylopedia is considered canon. On the Super Mario reddit, that number drops to 0. And these aren't one off occurrances; story discussions rarely reach the front page. Whether that's because not enough people create topics to have that happen, or they're just not popular enough, I can't say, but your claim about story discussion popularity doesn't seem to hold up under examination.

As for the hunters, again, I'll disagree. If Retro really wanted you to feel anything for them (besides possibly Rundas, I'll grant that), they'd actually give them more than 5 minutes of screen time. I think arguing that Retro really meant for the player to get attached to Admiral Dane, Ghor, or Gandrayda, with such minimal screen time, is kind of an insult to the company. As for what makes the Hunters specifically important in that regard compared to every other enemy being infected, it has to do with the power level of the enemy. We've already seen plenty of less powerful enemies be corrupted by Phazon throughout the previous two Prime games; showing even more random Space Pirates or wildlife get corrupted wouldn't be particularly meaningful. Establishing some other bounty hunters to be at least close to Samus' power level, and then showing them get messed up as well, is a far more effective way to communicate to the player that Phazon is something to worry about.

Lastly...Fusion is nowhere near the Majora's Mask of Metroid. The game has a 9.1 average user rating on Metacritic, for the love of biscuit. This game isn't some critic darling, fanbase disliked title like Skyward Sword. Sure, there's a portion of the fanbase that feels Fusion was subpar, but the same is true for any departure of any sort in the Metroid series; including Prime 3 and Samus Returns. Fusion has always been reasonably well liked, and it hasn't seen any sort of dramatic increase in popularity due to Other M.

Oh PLEASE, reddit is not the go to page for game discussions you know or were you born yesterday? blogs, fansites, Zelda communities, youtube, gamefaqs, gamespot, ign hell even before the internet was a thing there have been Zelda discussions about it's plot and i said specifically there are unlimited Zelda discussions about ANYTHING Zelda on the whole net including this site. I can go on and on but if you seriously believe that Metroid is even remotely as discussed or as popular as Zelda or Mario than you're just delusional. I love Metroid but even i don't go that far.

As for your last two arguments we can go on and on discussing but the topic at hand was about Metroid 5's narrative which were no longer talking about so i'll just leave it at that.



Snoorlax said:
MTZehvor said:

To the Zelda/Mario story point, I'll put it to you this way. As of the time of this post's creation, out of the 25 posts on the front page of r/Zelda, only two are even remotely related to the series' story. And one is simply asking if the encylopedia is considered canon. On the Super Mario reddit, that number drops to 0. And these aren't one off occurrances; story discussions rarely reach the front page. Whether that's because not enough people create topics to have that happen, or they're just not popular enough, I can't say, but your claim about story discussion popularity doesn't seem to hold up under examination.

As for the hunters, again, I'll disagree. If Retro really wanted you to feel anything for them (besides possibly Rundas, I'll grant that), they'd actually give them more than 5 minutes of screen time. I think arguing that Retro really meant for the player to get attached to Admiral Dane, Ghor, or Gandrayda, with such minimal screen time, is kind of an insult to the company. As for what makes the Hunters specifically important in that regard compared to every other enemy being infected, it has to do with the power level of the enemy. We've already seen plenty of less powerful enemies be corrupted by Phazon throughout the previous two Prime games; showing even more random Space Pirates or wildlife get corrupted wouldn't be particularly meaningful. Establishing some other bounty hunters to be at least close to Samus' power level, and then showing them get messed up as well, is a far more effective way to communicate to the player that Phazon is something to worry about.

Lastly...Fusion is nowhere near the Majora's Mask of Metroid. The game has a 9.1 average user rating on Metacritic, for the love of biscuit. This game isn't some critic darling, fanbase disliked title like Skyward Sword. Sure, there's a portion of the fanbase that feels Fusion was subpar, but the same is true for any departure of any sort in the Metroid series; including Prime 3 and Samus Returns. Fusion has always been reasonably well liked, and it hasn't seen any sort of dramatic increase in popularity due to Other M.

Oh PLEASE, reddit is not the go to page for game discussions you know or were you born yesterday? blogs, fansites, Zelda communities, youtube, gamefaqs, gamespot, ign hell even before the internet was a thing there have been Zelda discussions about it's plot and i said specifically there are unlimited Zelda discussions about ANYTHING Zelda on the whole net including this site. I can go on and on but if you seriously believe that Metroid is even remotely as discussed or as popular as Zelda or Mario than you're just delusional. I love Metroid but even i don't go that far.

As for your last two arguments we can go on and on discussing but the topic at hand was about Metroid 5's narrative which were no longer talking about so i'll just leave it at that.

Well, first I need to draw a significant distinction here; I will never argue that Metroid is more popular than either Zelda or Mario, or that there are more topics dedicated to anything Metroid than Zelda or Mario. My argument is that, within the fandom, story discussions are not more likely to occur for Zelda or Mario than for Metroid. In other words, on a per capita basis, Metroid fans do not discuss the story of their games less than Zelda or Mario.

If you disagree with that, we can keep going.



couchmonkey said:

What is the "inherent " proof of a game's goodness?  High score on metacritic?  That can be bought, we have proof from Gamespot's Kane & Lynch fiasco.

Well. You have personal taste and opinion.

But I think if you have a good video game reviewer that you trust, then they are probably the best outlet.

couchmonkey said:

As for Rare, I have a soft spot for the company, but I admit they've lost it a bit.  The new piratey game looks kind of interesting, tho.

Your sentiment mimics my own.
They aren't as amazeballs as they used to be... But their more recent titles like Viva Pinata, Nuts and Bolts had me hooked for awhile there.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

mZuzek said:
I wanna keep up with the discussion, but you guys are so LONG.

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)



Pemalite said:
couchmonkey said:

What is the "inherent " proof of a game's goodness?  High score on metacritic?  That can be bought, we have proof from Gamespot's Kane & Lynch fiasco.

Well. You have personal taste and opinion.

But I think if you have a good video game reviewer that you trust, then they are probably the best outlet.

couchmonkey said:

As for Rare, I have a soft spot for the company, but I admit they've lost it a bit.  The new piratey game looks kind of interesting, tho.

Your sentiment mimics my own.
They aren't as amazeballs as they used to be... But their more recent titles like Viva Pinata, Nuts and Bolts had me hooked for awhile there.

recent titles that were released like 10 years ago and have become irrelevant ever since a few years after release.

Nuts and Bolts was received with huge dissapointment by BK fans and Viva Piñata was a fun casual game yet nothing really happened with it other than a few sequels which didnt have the same impact and a tv series which died off quick Kameo Elements of Power is another game that had potential yet nothing happened with it and Perfect Dark Zero released and was never heard of again.

The only reasons Rare is still alive is because of Kinect, Kinect Sports and nostalgia > Rare Replay.

mZuzek said:
I wanna keep up with the discussion, but you guys are so LONG.

Don't worry about it, this discussion is barely even about Metroid anymore instead about other games that are somehow relevant to Samus Returns or Metroid 5.