Forums - Politics Discussion - Trumpcare Would Leave 22 Million Uninsured But Give The Wealthy $250,000 Tax Break

monocle_layton said:
KManX89 said:
And the funny thing is, those dumb Trump supporters will be cheering on their own death.

As long as they believe liberals are 'offended', they'll do anything, including killing themselves and our planet

lol, it'd be funny if it wasn't true. 



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AlfredoTurkey said:
The_Yoda said:

Wrong the emergency room cannot deny medical care to ANYONE period. I said nothing of medicaid. 

And I said nothing of the emergency room.

Fair enough I took "At least with Obama, millions of working poor had some form of health care and they didn't have to die if they got seriously ill. The US needs universal health care. It should be a right, not a privilege. " to mean medical attention , the kind that will be provided to anyone visiting the emergency room.  My bad, I put words in your mouth.  As another user pointed out the emergency room won't be able to do much about cancer or several other diseases, that said an emergency room can treat you for many many serious things.

 

Emergency room visits by the uninsured were touted as one of the big costs that were driving costs up and with the ACA and these millions of new insured we were assured that this number would drop just like our costs.  I find this and many of the statistics provided on this page to be interesting and quite counter to the lie we were fed with the (your going to have to pass it to read it) ACA you are defending:

 

21. The ACA requirement for health coverage took effect Jan. 1, 2014; here is how volume changed between then and March 2015, according to emergency medicine physicians:

• Greatly increased: 28 percent
• Slightly increased: 47 percent
• Remained the same: 17 percent
• Slightly decreased: 5 percent
• Greatly decreased: 0 percent
• Not sure: 3 percent

 

Looks like emergency rooms are getting busier comparing the numbers from the first page (2016 numbers) to the CDC's numbers from 2013 found here.  Amazingly even with the wonderful ACA 14% of those visiting the emergency room had ... wait for it ... no insurance! OMG can you believe it?



vivster said:
epicurean said:
The democrats were smart in getting their health care bill through, no matter who much it screwed the working class or the deficit. Now whenever it attempts to be changed/repealed/etc, they will always be able to say "millions lose insurance". That is always the lead.

Because millions of people not dying is a lot more important than anything else?

And I don't know why you make this exclusive to democrats. Remember that one guy who promised to insure everyone. He must be furious right now at the Republicans.

Vivster of the many people here I would have figured you to be one that took the view that humanity is a cancer upon this planet.  I know many of you will disagree but part of my mind, the logical part, really does believe that.  If we go unchecked living longer, thereby consuming more we will quickly, in a geological sense, choke the shit out of this planet. Then there is the damn empathetic part of my mind that really wishes we lived in a utopia where everyone was cared for and knew little to no sufferring and managed to find a way not to over-run this planet of ours.  I don't want people to suffer and die, but die some must to make room for the new. i used to think China was monsterous for thier laws on child bearing but i've kind of come around to thinking they had some forsight (or they watched the movie Idiocracy and it made a good deal of sense to them)



trump is a business man I am not surprise



The_Yoda said:
vivster said:

Because millions of people not dying is a lot more important than anything else?

And I don't know why you make this exclusive to democrats. Remember that one guy who promised to insure everyone. He must be furious right now at the Republicans.

Vivster of the many people here I would have figured you to be one that took the view that humanity is a cancer upon this planet.  I know many of you will disagree but part of my mind, the logical part, really does believe that.  If we go unchecked living longer, thereby consuming more we will quickly, in a geological sense, choke the shit out of this planet. Then there is the damn empathetic part of my mind that really wishes we lived in a utopia where everyone was cared for and knew little to no sufferring and managed to find a way not to over-run this planet of ours.  I don't want people to suffer and die, but die some must to make room for the new. i used to think China was monsterous for thier laws on child bearing but i've kind of come around to thinking they had some forsight (or they watched the movie Idiocracy and it made a good deal of sense to them)

I'm certainly with you on that. Even though I'm not as misanthropic than I used to be. The world is already over populated but just letting people die of curable deseases isn't the right method. Nobody will learn anything from that.

The main point here though is to stomp out anti-intellectualism which leads to most of society's problems. And to do that you need to send clear signs to idiots. We need to attack every and any attempt of misleading or misinforming the public viciously.

In this case the new healthcare bill is worse in all points while malicious and/or ignorant people are trying to say it's the opposite and are calling actual studies fake. This is aggressively idiotic and very harmful to the public mindset.

We need to stomp out idiotic claims so that the human society will start to become more rational and skeptical as a whole. Once we do that we can actually start tackling the world's problems because now we have a thinking populace behind us. We will still have idiots but malicious idiots have always been a small minority. But with the right mindset they won't be able to sway the non-malicious idiots, which is the vast majority.



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Looks like trump is going to save the US a lot of money.
If people die earlier they cost less money overall.

It still amazes me someone like him could ever be president, I would not want to live in the US right now. Lets hope healthcare gets better with the next presidential candidates.




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vivster said:
The_Yoda said:

Vivster of the many people here I would have figured you to be one that took the view that humanity is a cancer upon this planet.  I know many of you will disagree but part of my mind, the logical part, really does believe that.  If we go unchecked living longer, thereby consuming more we will quickly, in a geological sense, choke the shit out of this planet. Then there is the damn empathetic part of my mind that really wishes we lived in a utopia where everyone was cared for and knew little to no sufferring and managed to find a way not to over-run this planet of ours.  I don't want people to suffer and die, but die some must to make room for the new. i used to think China was monsterous for thier laws on child bearing but i've kind of come around to thinking they had some forsight (or they watched the movie Idiocracy and it made a good deal of sense to them)

I'm certainly with you on that. Even though I'm not as misanthropic than I used to be. The world is already over populated but just letting people die of curable deseases isn't the right method. Nobody will learn anything from that.

The main point here though is to stomp out anti-intellectualism which leads to most of society's problems. And to do that you need to send clear signs to idiots. We need to attack every and any attempt of misleading or misinforming the public viciously.

In this case the new healthcare bill is worse in all points while malicious and/or ignorant people are trying to say it's the opposite and are calling actual studies fake. This is aggressively idiotic and very harmful to the public mindset.

We need to stomp out idiotic claims so that the human society will start to become more rational and skeptical as a whole. Once we do that we can actually start tackling the world's problems because now we have a thinking populace behind us. We will still have idiots but malicious idiots have always been a small minority. But with the right mindset they won't be able to sway the non-malicious idiots, which is the vast majority.

I'm mostly joking but ... Wouldn't the bulk of the thinking populace, as individuals, think of a way to be able to afford insurance in their lives? Aren't those the people we would want to survive?



Mr Puggsly said:
Zod95 said:

I completely agree with your first 2 sentences. Regarding the 3rd one, stay out of wars and suddenly everything is sustainable.

Make healthcare affordable is not rocket science. Just look at what dozens of countries around the world have done.

Our military budget is very high yet still a fraction of our healthcare, social security and other entitlements spending. Our military budget could be 0% of the budget and we would still spend too much. The US has a spending problem and its not sustainable.

Well some countries pay high taxes for "free" healthcare. But they also have regulations that keep the costs of healthcare down. Canada inpaticular is known for long waits and that's because their healthcare needs more money in a country with already high taxes. So I dunno, its a more complex issue than people treat it. Seems like there are pros and cons no matter what direction we go.

I was talking to a someone younger than me about healthcare recently. He said he wanted a cheap healthcare plan that just covers major problems but doesn't cover the small stuff like checkups or other simple procedures. I had to explain to him that's what Obamacare took away, affordable coverage options that made us shop around for simple stuff. When insurance is expected cover everything, nobody price shops so all procedures get more expensive.

Anything is a fraction of everything else once nothing accounts for more than 50% of the federal budget:

https://media.nationalpriorities.org/uploads/total_spending_pie%2C__2015_enacted.png

Military + Veterans Benefits totals 20%, which is a big chunk of the budget (more than a half of either Social Security or Healthcare). If you shrink that to say 2%, as any non-imperialistic country has, you get 18% so spend elsewhere. Plus, if you create a healthcare-for-all-for-free system as scandinavian countries have, it will cost as much or even less than those 27% you already have today. Social security should be paid by the workers, not the federal government. A fraction of the salaries should be taken to finance pensions and unemployment subsidies. That's another 33% you would save. With those 51% I would increase spending on Education to at least 15% (in order to get equal opportunities for everybody) and increase Energy and Science to at least 3% each. The other 30% would be to pay off debt and decrease in the long term those 6% on interest.

Regarding healthcare, you shouldn't price shop it. You should get everything you need. I live in Portugal and in here healthcare is free. In some cases, you have long waits but when you really need it the system is there to treat you. That's not perfect (and I know there are great inefficiencies) but in my opinion it's much better than in the USA.



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TallSilhouette said:
Locknuts said:
You are entitled to nothing. The federal government's job is to protect it's citizens from foreign aggression. Healthcare is not a human right.

It should be.

Health became a business in a country where money is the only god. I'm sure there's plenty of lobbyist fighting for the doctor's right to a new summer house or those fat suits at the big pharma and their neverending greed. People are dying because of this, it's disgusting.



Zod95 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Our military budget is very high yet still a fraction of our healthcare, social security and other entitlements spending. Our military budget could be 0% of the budget and we would still spend too much. The US has a spending problem and its not sustainable.

Well some countries pay high taxes for "free" healthcare. But they also have regulations that keep the costs of healthcare down. Canada inpaticular is known for long waits and that's because their healthcare needs more money in a country with already high taxes. So I dunno, its a more complex issue than people treat it. Seems like there are pros and cons no matter what direction we go.

I was talking to a someone younger than me about healthcare recently. He said he wanted a cheap healthcare plan that just covers major problems but doesn't cover the small stuff like checkups or other simple procedures. I had to explain to him that's what Obamacare took away, affordable coverage options that made us shop around for simple stuff. When insurance is expected cover everything, nobody price shops so all procedures get more expensive.

Anything is a fraction of everything else once nothing accounts for more than 50% of the federal budget:

https://media.nationalpriorities.org/uploads/total_spending_pie%2C__2015_enacted.png

Military + Veterans Benefits totals 20%, which is a big chunk of the budget (more than a half of either Social Security or Healthcare). If you shrink that to say 2%, as any non-imperialistic country has, you get 18% so spend elsewhere. Plus, if you create a healthcare-for-all-for-free system as scandinavian countries have, it will cost as much or even less than those 27% you already have today. Social security should be paid by the workers, not the federal government. A fraction of the salaries should be taken to finance pensions and unemployment subsidies. That's another 33% you would save. With those 51% I would increase spending on Education to at least 15% (in order to get equal opportunities for everybody) and increase Energy and Science to at least 3% each. The other 30% would be to pay off debt and decrease in the long term those 6% on interest.

Regarding healthcare, you shouldn't price shop it. You should get everything you need. I live in Portugal and in here healthcare is free. In some cases, you have long waits but when you really need it the system is there to treat you. That's not perfect (and I know there are great inefficiencies) but in my opinion it's much better than in the USA.

Seems like you're proving what I said already, US has a spending problem.

The lack of price shopping essentially keeps prices high. If prices are more affordable the average person can afford to pay more of their routine needs out of pocket or with an HSA. When insurance covers everything and nobody price shops, then prices are high. This is part of the reason there are long waits in "free healthcare." There isn't enough money to go around so people have to wait.

The biggest problem with health insurance in the US is it actually makes healthcare expensive because people with insurance aren't price shopping. The insurance companies basically give healthcare providers whatever they want, its kinda crazy.

I'm thinking the best solution is health insurance covers only covers major things we couldn't possibly pay for, like cancer, major surgieries, etc. That covereage would be cheap enough for basically any working person to have. While the simple routine stuff is paid for with a HSA or out of pocket, that would make it cheaper. Meanwhile those who genuinely need help paying for any medical treatment and routine stuff could get government assistance and it would be cheaper to do thanks to competition in the market.

Ultimately, FREE HEALTHCARE doesn't actually exist! Its a scam, its higher taxes. So bear in mind left or right we all want people to be taken care of. We just have different ideas how to do this. The right primarily wants it done in a more affordable way while the left wants limitless spending, atleast in the US.



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