RolStoppable said:
twintail said:
1) I am not saying it is consumer fault, and 2 ) because you said:
This is you saying that consumers are choosing not to buy 3rd party titles which ineivtably means it is their fault 3rd party games are not selling.
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No, it doesn't mean that. Free market means that it is on companies to provide products that people are interested in buying. If companies are unwilling to do that, then it's their own fault if their products don't sell.
Free market is what shaped the game output of third parties. What you see today is merely the result of a split that dates back over 25 years. Nintendo games have always been tough competition, so a competing console manufacturer (Sega being the first one, in case it isn't clear) would highlight something different in tone to Nintendo games as something that is very desirable, even if that was first and foremost a marketing strategy (Sonic being more grown-up than Mario has always been an illusion). That in turn is attractive for third party publishers because it takes Nintendo out of the equation for the most part. Over the course of several generations third parties have tailored their games more and more towards the counter-culture of Nintendo. (I call it counter-culture because Sega rose to fame by making it a point that they aren't Nintendo.)
If third parties then simply port over the same games to an audience that is not counter-culture, there can't be a reasonable expectation that said audience will consider these games as good as the counter-culture audience does. Traits that are considered positives by the counter-culture (M-rating in and of itself, for example), leave people who buy Nintendo systems cold because they don't assign a higher value to games based on age rating alone. This means that an M-rated game has to offer the same level of substance that is expected from popular Nintendo games. What EA, Ubisoft etc. put out usually falls flat with mediocre gameplay systems and inconsequential collectibles that are put in to create an illusion of content value.
What is generally ignored in these third party/Nintendo/Nintendo system owners discussions are Nintendo handhelds, but it's something that absolutely should be taken into account. When you apply the above reasoning to Nintendo handhelds, you won't be able to get around the conclusion that third parties treat Nintendo home consoles and handhelds differently. The third party game output on Nintendo handhelds doesn't try to bank on superficial features like excessive violence or tits (the latter being prevalent on Sony handhelds), rather it accounts more for things that owners of Nintendo handhelds already value. A standard genre like JRPGs has no trouble selling. Third parties are doing pretty well overall, but that doesn't come down to Nintendo system owners suddenly having a different attitude, it comes down to third parties obeying to the rules of a free market: If you want to sell products, you need to be willing to compete. You can't pretend that competition doesn't exist and that your products should sell for the simple reason that they were made available. It doesn't work that way.
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M-rating is not a value in and of itself to gamers, they simply want adult themes and stories and more "realistic" and gritty presentation. To put it bluntly, unicorns shooting rainbows just doesn't appeal to them. I wish you would appreciate that fact instead of making value judgments based on your own preferences. I enjoy Game Of Thrones more than I do Dragonball Z, if you can see what I'm getting at.
Ninty fans always talk about gameplay and how it's the most important aspect, but every game out there has gameplay. Sure, different games and genres have different gameplay and there's good GP and crappy GP in every genre (duh) but that only goes to highlight the fact that it's impossible to make direct comparisons between them. It's apples and oranges. People want different things. One could say that Tetris has great gameplay, it's simple, it's smooth, it's addictive, but in the end, Tetris will just be Tetris, no matter how polished.
You talk about substance, as if only Nintendo games have that. What is substance to you? To me, the most popular Nintendo games are the very antithesis of substance. No story worth mentioning, no moral decisions, no difficult themes, just light-hearted fun and pick-up-and-go distraction. Platforming. Fluffy stuff. I agree with you, though, that collectibles of all kind are just a cheap way of lenghtening a game and offer no substance to speak of.
How do you measure content and value? Some measure the time it takes to finish a game, but what about things like MMO games that don't really have an end, they just go on in an infinite loop? I think the best measure is to look at what the game offers with respect to what you are looking for.
What I'm really trying to say is that I wish we could have these discussions without feeling the need to take potshots at each other, regardless of the platforms we have chosen. But then again, would any of this be any fun, if it was all about the facts and there was no emotion or speculation..