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Forums - Nintendo - Where do the Third Party/Nintendo fan issues come from?

JRPGfan said:
KrspaceT said:

Is it a chicken and the egg question, or is there a definite answer. 

 

Does it start with the gamers, or the games themselves? If the gamers don't buy is it the publishers fault? If the games are bad, is it the fans fault?

 

I admit I am thinking about this question with the switch looming and I'd like some thoughts on the matter. 

It started with Nintendo.

They choose not to use CDs, back when disc space was a issue.

As time went on, and it just became normal that nintendo systems lacked 3rd party, most users adopted a "screw them" mentality, and just support nintendo games. Often a 2nd to own console, where you dont buy 3rd party on it.

Now its no longer Nintendo at fault, its the conditioned consumers too.

 

The only way out of the hole, would be to do a traditional console, like a PS4 that was on the same level as the then current PS/XB, and not be released 4years or so after them.

Disc space wasn't an issue, as the compression methods Nintendo used allowed roughly a CD to be fitted on a cartridge. The problem was the cost of a cartridge and therefore higher risk to publish a game. If a CD cost around 10c to press, cartridge was 5$ a piece. The N64DD was released so that the costs of a medium could be reduced - the magnetic disk was cheap in relation.



Ei Kiinasti.

Eikä Japanisti.

Vaan pannaan jalalla koreasti.

 

Nintendo games sell only on Nintendo system.

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It didn't start with Nintendo and it didn't start with third parties.

It started with Atari.

Not the answer you expected maybe but let me explain. Atari had flooded their system with crap the previous generation. Which led to consumer confidence being eroded to the point where the home console market was declared dead. Nintendo looked at this and put in severe restrictions on their platforms to prevent this from happening in the future. This of course upset third parties.
When the playstation swooped in, Nintendo didn't catch on time that third parties and the playing field had changed. Sony reopened the floodgates for software at the right time and caught Nintendo off guard. And they never recovered since.



I LOVE ICELAND!

 

pokoko said:

Back when Nintendo had a stranglehold on the industry, they put in place a bunch of anti-competitive policies in order to keep a monopoly in North America. Basically, third-parties got shafted all the way around.

Nintendo made developers agree to exclusivity just to have a game on a Nintendo system. I don't mean just exclusive games, I mean Nintendo demanded that developers release nothing at all on rival systems for a certain window. They made studios pay them to manufacture the cartridges but controlled production amounts, which ended up with third-party games always being under-shipped and sold-out during key retail periods. They demanded that developers make a working game first, without any agreement, then they would decided if they'd allow it on the system based on their own rules--for example, they might decide your game was too much like something they were releasing, which means you were screwed over something you might have gone into debt to make.

I remember one of the guys from EA saying they'd decided to become a PC developer rather than play by Nintendo's rules. Sega tried Nintendo's approach before opening things up for third-parties and then Playstation came and blew the doors off Nintendo's monopoly. Third-parties jumped ship because of practical reasons, like the CD format, but they weren't exactly sad about the turn of events.

What does that have to do with anything now? Business is business, after all. Executives don't stay at the top by holding grudges above profit margins.

In short, Nintendo created a situation where the third-party environment moved on to somewhere else. Their policies and hardware mistakes resulted in a divided market. I'm sure they thought that just being Nintendo would be enough to crush the competition and the third-parties would crawl back meekly but, obviously, that didn't happen. Moreover, the longer that didn't happen, the more the market fragmented.

At present, in my opinion, publishers are just fine with keeping things the way they are. Instead of releasing on four platforms, with the related increase in marketing, production, and distribution costs, they can release on three platforms with pretty much the same number of sales. There really is no reason for them to try all that hard to expand their existing framework unless it develops on its own.

If the Switch is a big success that steals away consumers from Xbox/Playstation/PC then third-parties will be there. If not, they're fine with ignoring Nintendo, too.

So, ultimately, Nintendo bears the most responsibility for the current situation with third-party developers and publishers.

Yup.  This is spot on.  



Are there real issues at all? Let´s see....

Many third party games sell very well on Nintendo platforms, specially on the 3ds - Monster Hunter, Dragon Quest, Bravely Default, Prof Layton series etc. Many sold well on Wii too - Skylanders, Epic Mickey, Lego games, Sega games etc. but very few on WiiU (Lego City Undercover, ZombiU - surpassing 01 million copies)

So it seems that people who buy Nintendo platforms do that for the exclusive content. If third parties want to sell well on Nintendo platforms, worse ports of multiplats won´t please the audience, it´s better launch something entirely unique that appeal for Nintendo fans.



RolStoppable said:
twintail said:

1) I am not saying it is consumer fault, and 2 ) because you said:

This is you saying that consumers are choosing not to buy 3rd party titles which ineivtably means it is their fault 3rd party games are not selling. 

No, it doesn't mean that. Free market means that it is on companies to provide products that people are interested in buying. If companies are unwilling to do that, then it's their own fault if their products don't sell.

Free market is what shaped the game output of third parties. What you see today is merely the result of a split that dates back over 25 years. Nintendo games have always been tough competition, so a competing console manufacturer (Sega being the first one, in case it isn't clear) would highlight something different in tone to Nintendo games as something that is very desirable, even if that was first and foremost a marketing strategy (Sonic being more grown-up than Mario has always been an illusion). That in turn is attractive for third party publishers because it takes Nintendo out of the equation for the most part. Over the course of several generations third parties have tailored their games more and more towards the counter-culture of Nintendo. (I call it counter-culture because Sega rose to fame by making it a point that they aren't Nintendo.)

If third parties then simply port over the same games to an audience that is not counter-culture, there can't be a reasonable expectation that said audience will consider these games as good as the counter-culture audience does. Traits that are considered positives by the counter-culture (M-rating in and of itself, for example), leave people who buy Nintendo systems cold because they don't assign a higher value to games based on age rating alone. This means that an M-rated game has to offer the same level of substance that is expected from popular Nintendo games. What EA, Ubisoft etc. put out usually falls flat with mediocre gameplay systems and inconsequential collectibles that are put in to create an illusion of content value.

What is generally ignored in these third party/Nintendo/Nintendo system owners discussions are Nintendo handhelds, but it's something that absolutely should be taken into account. When you apply the above reasoning to Nintendo handhelds, you won't be able to get around the conclusion that third parties treat Nintendo home consoles and handhelds differently. The third party game output on Nintendo handhelds doesn't try to bank on superficial features like excessive violence or tits (the latter being prevalent on Sony handhelds), rather it accounts more for things that owners of Nintendo handhelds already value. A standard genre like JRPGs has no trouble selling. Third parties are doing pretty well overall, but that doesn't come down to Nintendo system owners suddenly having a different attitude, it comes down to third parties obeying to the rules of a free market: If you want to sell products, you need to be willing to compete. You can't pretend that competition doesn't exist and that your products should sell for the simple reason that they were made available. It doesn't work that way.

M-rating is not a value in and of itself to gamers, they simply want adult themes and stories and more "realistic" and gritty presentation. To put it bluntly, unicorns shooting rainbows just doesn't appeal to them. I wish you would appreciate that fact instead of making value judgments based on your own preferences. I enjoy Game Of Thrones more than I do Dragonball Z, if you can see what I'm getting at.

Ninty fans always talk about gameplay and how it's the most important aspect, but every game out there has gameplay. Sure, different games and genres have different gameplay and there's good GP and crappy GP in every genre (duh) but that only goes to highlight the fact that it's impossible to make direct comparisons between them. It's apples and oranges. People want different things. One could say that Tetris has great gameplay, it's simple, it's smooth, it's addictive, but in the end, Tetris will just be Tetris, no matter how polished.

You talk about substance, as if only Nintendo games have that. What is substance to you? To me, the most popular Nintendo games are the very antithesis of substance. No story worth mentioning, no moral decisions, no difficult themes, just light-hearted fun and pick-up-and-go distraction. Platforming. Fluffy stuff. I agree with you, though, that collectibles of all kind are just a cheap way of lenghtening a game and offer no substance to speak of.

How do you measure content and value? Some measure the time it takes to finish a game, but what about things like MMO games that don't really have an end, they just go on in an infinite loop? I think the best measure is to look at what the game offers with respect to what you are looking for.

What I'm really trying to say is that I wish we could have these discussions without feeling the need to take potshots at each other, regardless of the platforms we have chosen. But then again, would any of this be any fun, if it was all about the facts and there was no emotion or speculation..



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N64 made it exceedingly difficult to bring over large games like RPGs, because Nintendo went with 8 to 32 MB cartridges instead of CDs. First of all, cartridges cost a lot more for publishers, they had to risk a lot more money to put their games on store shelves. Additionally, consumers had to pay double to quadruple for N64 games, and PlayStation games often decreased in price after a time while N64 games did not.

It was the N64 era. In backlash, many of the stubborn Nintendo fans decided they hated third party games, and only bought Nintendo consoles for Nintendo games. Many other Nintendo fans just didn't buy the N64 or GameCube, but still got Nintendo handhelds. During the GameCube era, about 90% of Nintendo fans were for their handhelds. Wii brought the fans of the handhelds back to the home console space, but Wii U drove them away again.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

Some interesting arguments "for and against". Hard to definitively point out the cause but the fact that many feel there is an issue is more than telling of the situation.



-VIDEOGAME NINJA APPROVED-

KungKras said:
It didn't start with Nintendo and it didn't start with third parties.

It started with Atari.

Not the answer you expected maybe but let me explain. Atari had flooded their system with crap the previous generation. Which led to consumer confidence being eroded to the point where the home console market was declared dead. Nintendo looked at this and put in severe restrictions on their platforms to prevent this from happening in the future. This of course upset third parties.
When the playstation swooped in, Nintendo didn't catch on time that third parties and the playing field had changed. Sony reopened the floodgates for software at the right time and caught Nintendo off guard. And they never recovered since.

But that's only half of the truth. Nintendo made the same mistakes in Japan with Famicom, by not having a lockout chip, unlike NES, and it was a huge market of unlicensed Fami games (which may be why Nintendo promoted the Famicom Disc System so heavily). Whether the restrictions were there because of seeing what happened to Atari or Nintendos own experience in Japan, unlicensed games are games you did not pay royalties for he platform holder. 3rd parties (like EA) liked it, but not Atari/Nintendo/Sega. 

Had Atari wanted to prevent all the shovelware from crashing the market, by the time of their crash, Atari could not do anything about it.

But, about the third party games on Nintendo systems, the handhelds haven't experienced problems. The only issue here is money and having the royalties cheaper. 



Ei Kiinasti.

Eikä Japanisti.

Vaan pannaan jalalla koreasti.

 

Nintendo games sell only on Nintendo system.

Dante9 said:

M-rating is not a value in and of itself to gamers, they simply want adult themes and stories and more "realistic" and gritty presentation. To put it bluntly, unicorns shooting rainbows just doesn't appeal to them. I wish you would appreciate that fact instead of making value judgments based on your own preferences. I enjoy Game Of Thrones more than I do Dragonball Z, if you can see what I'm getting at.

Ninty fans always talk about gameplay and how it's the most important aspect, but every game out there has gameplay. Sure, different games and genres have different gameplay and there's good GP and crappy GP in every genre (duh) but that only goes to highlight the fact that it's impossible to make direct comparisons between them. It's apples and oranges. People want different things. One could say that Tetris has great gameplay, it's simple, it's smooth, it's addictive, but in the end, Tetris will just be Tetris, no matter how polished.

You talk about substance, as if only Nintendo games have that. What is substance to you? To me, the most popular Nintendo games are the very antithesis of substance. No story worth mentioning, no moral decisions, no difficult themes, just light-hearted fun and pick-up-and-go distraction. Platforming. Fluffy stuff. I agree with you, though, that collectibles of all kind are just a cheap way of lenghtening a game and offer no substance to speak of.

How do you measure content and value? Some measure the time it takes to finish a game, but what about things like MMO games that don't really have an end, they just go on in an infinite loop? I think the best measure is to look at what the game offers with respect to what you are looking for.

What I'm really trying to say is that I wish we could have these discussions without feeling the need to take potshots at each other, regardless of the platforms we have chosen. But then again, would any of this be any fun, if it was all about the facts and there was no emotion or speculation..

The age rating thing isn't quite true. Firstly because of all the kids wanting to play games they aren't allowed to, and secondly by looking at the videogames forums where gamers bitch and whine about the lack of M-rated games.

 

By looking at only one aspect is just missing the big picture. Games in the end are products and if you want a successful product, the whole product needs to be "good enough". Nobody can call (of course you CAN...) Excite Truck a good game, it's mediocre at best, but (the content of the game) driving off-road pedal to the metal was so awesome, that the game was huge fun even with the mediocre gameplay and not even having a feel of racing.

 

Let's think bottled water as an example of a product, is it because of the water it sells? In that case you only need to sell water. Or is it the bottle because it's selling? In that case you only need bottles. In either case, it makes absolutely no sense to sell water in bottles. Why? Because people only need water or bottles. 

 

One big part in the modern game industry products is the hype preceeding the launch. If you don't live the hype, get the games years after the launch - or the game doesn't live up to the hype, the game lacks the substance.

You wait for Final Call of Solid for two years jerking in a ring in the message boards, and when it comes out, the game is nothing like you expected it to be. People end up not buying it (aside from preorders) and the developers are blaming the gamers being stupid for not buying their genious game.

 

 

Content of the game is what the game is giving out to you, or how you perceive the game. Value is what else could you be doing than play videogames and what would it give out to you.

 

 

Back to third parties with the above in mind; they've been pretty consistent in making games with the mentality the games do not need "X" bacause they sell on "Y" anyway. They make 30hrs of walking simulators, when people want 30 minutes of action. 



Ei Kiinasti.

Eikä Japanisti.

Vaan pannaan jalalla koreasti.

 

Nintendo games sell only on Nintendo system.