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Forums - Nintendo - Why I think Nintendo Switch is set for another Wii U disaster.

maxleresistant said:
Slarvax said:

I just don't understand how a system with Pokemon, Zelda, Mario (and all of its spin-offs), Splatoon, Kirby, Pikmin, Animal Crossing, DKC, some 3rd party exclusives and isn't expensive can sell less than 15 million units.

Edit: Actually, I'll take bets. The Switch will outsell the Wii U LT with just Japan in 3 years (or before 2020).

Of course it will, but its not replacing just the wiiU. Now its pretty sure Nintendo has a back up plans in case of switch not selling enough, they would be awfully dumb to not have one, otherwise they are putting all their eggs into one basket.

So the way we can really mesure the switch success right now, with all Nintendo is saying today, is not by comparing it to the wiiU, but the 3ds, or 3ds+WiiU.

That is the real issue.  It will not be a Wii U failure, but it's form factor means outdoing the Wii U several times over may not be good enough.  It probably needs to outsell the SNES to be considered a big success, and it is unknown at the moment if it can.



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doublepost



maxleresistant said:

It means that the point of having one system to be a handheld and a home system was to have to develop only one version of the game. Ok? Well they went with one system with two really different power mode. So different we now know that if the developpers wants to make full use of the dock mode they ll have to do a lot of extra work.

Basically, the result would have been the same with 2 separate devices but with an even better gpu in the home system. Still extra work to release it on both, but at least the home console as a chance of being competitive against the ps4 and one.

re: concept they would be better off offering separate console to get more power,

the concept of unified game library enabling better game library is coherent,
and a separate console isn't NECESSARILY incompatable with that (buy once, use on both platforms)
but making a LARGER performance delta between the versions would make cross-developing for both platforms ha(irder.
(assuming one tries to leverage the higher performance of separate console, if that is not done then point of higher power is defeated)
as is, both "modes" have identical CPU performance which means core game code can remain exactly identical,
the only difference being GPU performance (on same GPU) which scales graphics code depending on screen output target.

but reality is, if they wanted more power they could trivially make a device using modern 14nm or even 10nm process,
with roughly 30% or more performance per watt just from that, yet that haven't chosen to do so.

 

 

BTW, on ergonomics, does anybody have further thoughts on that?
IMHO even for people who prefer asymmetrical joysticks, the portable mode layout sucks.
Because while asymmetrical can work great in normal controller built around it,
the way it's set up on sides of flat tablet just seems like it's horrible positioning,
forcing you to hold the entire tablet in asymmetrical way (strange),
and putting the buttons on that side in more awkward position to instantly push.




DS = portable Playstation/N64 tier graphics with touch screen

3DS = portable PS2/GameCube tier graphics with 3D screen effect

Switch = portable PS3/Wii U tier graphics with docked home console play ("switch").

Seems actually like a fairly linear progression.



maxleresistant said:
Mr.GameCrazy said:

What's complicated about the controls for the Nintendo Switch? They look like pretty much like traditional controls (besides the Joy Cons when they are used by themselves are very simple).

This is from the official website 

"Gaming springs into action by removing detachable Joy-Con controllers from either side of Nintendo Switch. One player can use a Joy-Con controller in each hand; two players can each take one; or multiple Joy-Con can be employed by numerous people for a variety of gameplay options. They can easily click back into place or be slipped into a Joy-Con Grip accessory, mirroring a more traditional controller. Or, if preferred, the gamer can select an optional Nintendo Switch Pro Controller to use instead of the Joy-Con controllers. Furthermore, it is possible for numerous people to bring their Nintendo Switch systems together to enjoy local multiplayer face-to-face competition."

If you think that most people aren t lost by all this, you are wrong. The wiiU was already a mess because it had 3 official controllers, people couldn t wrap their head around the fact that you could only have one gamepad per wiiU. 

I know we are all gamers here, but the market is not just us, it s mainly average consumers who likes simple and easy to use products.

I don t see the switch as a simple product, I see it as a product that tries to do too many thing and does nothing properly.

I own a WiiU, I remember when I bought Nintendoland, that game is a mess, you need the gamepad, wiimotes, wii motion plus, nunchucks, and you spend too much time changing the configurations. It had some nice mini games, but it was just a pain in the ass.


there is nothing wrong with a box and 4 normal controllers. Or a handheld that is just a handheld. The DS with its two screens was a great innovation, but that doesn t mean that every Nintendo console should try to reinvente the wheel

I'm getting the impression that you're saying that having options is bad.



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mutantsushi said:
maxleresistant said:

It means that the point of having one system to be a handheld and a home system was to have to develop only one version of the game. Ok? Well they went with one system with two really different power mode. So different we now know that if the developpers wants to make full use of the dock mode they ll have to do a lot of extra work.

Basically, the result would have been the same with 2 separate devices but with an even better gpu in the home system. Still extra work to release it on both, but at least the home console as a chance of being competitive against the ps4 and one.

re: concept they would be better off offering separate console to get more power,

the concept of unified game library enabling better game library is coherent,
and a separate console isn't NECESSARILY incompatable with that (buy once, use on both platforms)
but making a LARGER performance delta between the versions would make cross-developing for both platforms ha(irder.
(assuming one tries to leverage the higher performance of separate console, if that is not done then point of higher power is defeated)
as is, both "modes" have identical CPU performance which means core game code can remain exactly identical,
the only difference being GPU performance (on same GPU) which scales graphics code depending on screen output target.

but reality is, if they wanted more power they could trivially make a device using modern 14nm or even 10nm process,
with roughly 30% or more performance per watt just from that, yet that haven't chosen to do so.

 

 

BTW, on ergonomics, does anybody have further thoughts on that?
IMHO even for people who prefer asymmetrical joysticks, the portable mode layout sucks.
Because while asymmetrical can work great in normal controller built around it,
the way it's set up on sides of flat tablet just seems like it's horrible positioning,
forcing you to hold the entire tablet in asymmetrical way (strange),
and putting the buttons on that side in more awkward position to instantly push.


I m not going and try to pretend I m a tech expert. It s just my two cents, which probably arent worth anything.

I just don t believe in an overcomplicated device that tries to do everything, and I don t believe that puttibg two revenue streams into one is a sound economic strategy. It s just going to end up with their market shares shrinking. 

As for ergonomy. I don t know I need to try it. I mean people were complaining so much about the wiiu symmetrical joystick, and really, it s totally fine. It s just different.

So well maybe the switch will do fine too. It can t be worst than the DS, 3DS, 2DS. At least now they understand that the corners needs to be round so that the one in the bottom doesn t hurt your palms. Also the upper ones looks like they provide a good grip and aren t an issue for big hands trying to reach the shoulder buttons. 

I think the only handheld that is ergonomically well designed in Nintendo's history is the the first model of the GBA.



Mr.GameCrazy said:

I'm getting the impression that you're saying that having options is bad.

Again, an sound answer from a gamer's point of view, this is vgchartz, we should try and see the broader picture.

Too many options is confusing, it is not helping, customers needs to be lead.

You are a gamer, you don t need to be lead, you know the market, the products, you want to have the choice of playing like you want. You know what most hardcore gamers wants? A powerful console. You know what most casual wants? No buttons at all. 

On the other side of both of those spectrums, you have the switch, a system that will attract Nintendo fans and gamers who wants a dedicated handheld gaming device. I think the number of those people are in dangerous decline. I m one of those people.



alright...
so while it seemed like you were claiming a two-console strategy could just as well implement their unified game library strategy (just with better performance)
in all honesty you aren't trying to assess a better implementation of that strategy, you oppose the strategy to begin with. got it.

re: ergonomics, while of course i will have to get my hands on one to truly assess it, i stand by my take,
1) you are forced to either hold the entire device assymetrically or else torque your thumb uncomfortably far down,
2) the buttons cannot be in neutral easy position at same time as joystick, unlike proper controller which balances hand posture.
i could care less about "dog face" controller adapter thing because whenever you would use that, you can use "Pro" controller
but the handheld controller setup itself seems extremely un-ergonomic for extended portable game play.

I suppose one could attach an ergonomic hand grip to adjust the hand position so it better works out like normal controller ergonomics.  But it's pretty clear there is  a reason why normal console controllers DON'T take the over-simplified, non-ergonomic approach that the Switch portable layout does.  If they had gone with symmetrical layout, it would have improved ergonomics immensely IMHO.



Soundwave said:

All Nintendo games on one platform are nice, but do they really impact software diversity *that* much? I would question some of this. Even if you gave the Wii U a Zelda and Metroid and Animal Crossing game earlier in its life cycle, I think the only real difference is it would've sold 20 million maybe instead of 14 million. Both numbers are still abject failures. Nintendo alone cannot make up for the loss of huge genre diversity that third parties bring to the table

Fact that with Switch Nintendo dont need to make any more 2x 2D Mario games, 2x MK, 2x Mario Party, 2x Kirby games...and they can make just one game of each and make something else, means that Switch will have more diverse library than before.

 

 

maxleresistant said:
Mr.GameCrazy said:

What's complicated about the controls for the Nintendo Switch? They look like pretty much like traditional controls (besides the Joy Cons when they are used by themselves are very simple).

This is from the official website 

"Gaming springs into action by removing detachable Joy-Con controllers from either side of Nintendo Switch. One player can use a Joy-Con controller in each hand; two players can each take one; or multiple Joy-Con can be employed by numerous people for a variety of gameplay options. They can easily click back into place or be slipped into a Joy-Con Grip accessory, mirroring a more traditional controller. Or, if preferred, the gamer can select an optional Nintendo Switch Pro Controller to use instead of the Joy-Con controllers. Furthermore, it is possible for numerous people to bring their Nintendo Switch systems together to enjoy local multiplayer face-to-face competition."

If you think that most people aren t lost by all this, you are wrong. The wiiU was already a mess because it had 3 official controllers, people couldn t wrap their head around the fact that you could only have one gamepad per wiiU. 

I know we are all gamers here, but the market is not just us, it s mainly average consumers who likes simple and easy to use products.

I don t see the switch as a simple product, I see it as a product that tries to do too many thing and does nothing properly.

I own a WiiU, I remember when I bought Nintendoland, that game is a mess, you need the gamepad, wiimotes, wii motion plus, nunchucks, and you spend too much time changing the configurations. It had some nice mini games, but it was just a pain in the ass.


there is nothing wrong with a box and 4 normal controllers. Or a handheld that is just a handheld. The DS with its two screens was a great innovation, but that doesn t mean that every Nintendo console should try to reinvente the wheel

This is so wrong because just that 1st Switch 3 minute video was very clear about controls options and concept even for casuals, it's all very clear and simple, not confusing or hard to understand.



Miyamotoo said:
Soundwave said:

All Nintendo games on one platform are nice, but do they really impact software diversity *that* much? I would question some of this. Even if you gave the Wii U a Zelda and Metroid and Animal Crossing game earlier in its life cycle, I think the only real difference is it would've sold 20 million maybe instead of 14 million. Both numbers are still abject failures. Nintendo alone cannot make up for the loss of huge genre diversity that third parties bring to the table

Fact that with Switch Nintendo dont need to make any more 2x 2D Mario games, 2x MK, 2x Mario Party, 2x Kirby games...and they can make just one game of each and make something else, means that Switch will have more diverse library than before.

 

 

maxleresistant said:

This is from the official website 

"Gaming springs into action by removing detachable Joy-Con controllers from either side of Nintendo Switch. One player can use a Joy-Con controller in each hand; two players can each take one; or multiple Joy-Con can be employed by numerous people for a variety of gameplay options. They can easily click back into place or be slipped into a Joy-Con Grip accessory, mirroring a more traditional controller. Or, if preferred, the gamer can select an optional Nintendo Switch Pro Controller to use instead of the Joy-Con controllers. Furthermore, it is possible for numerous people to bring their Nintendo Switch systems together to enjoy local multiplayer face-to-face competition."

If you think that most people aren t lost by all this, you are wrong. The wiiU was already a mess because it had 3 official controllers, people couldn t wrap their head around the fact that you could only have one gamepad per wiiU. 

I know we are all gamers here, but the market is not just us, it s mainly average consumers who likes simple and easy to use products.

I don t see the switch as a simple product, I see it as a product that tries to do too many thing and does nothing properly.

I own a WiiU, I remember when I bought Nintendoland, that game is a mess, you need the gamepad, wiimotes, wii motion plus, nunchucks, and you spend too much time changing the configurations. It had some nice mini games, but it was just a pain in the ass.


there is nothing wrong with a box and 4 normal controllers. Or a handheld that is just a handheld. The DS with its two screens was a great innovation, but that doesn t mean that every Nintendo console should try to reinvente the wheel

This is so wrong because just that 1st Switch 3 minute video was very clear about controls options and concept even for casuals, it's all very clear and simple.

Nintendo can make more diverse games perhaps, but that doesn't magically mean they're going to make games that resonate with today's Western audiences for example. It's not so easy to make the next COD or Battlefield or franchise like that. 

It's more likely Nintendo will have continued success with cartoony/easy-to-pick-and-play/family games, but they already have a lock on that market. 

But yes it will help, it doesn't magically mean though that the system is going to sell like double what it would otherwise though.