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Forums - Sports Discussion - The Pro Wrasslin' Thread (WWE, WWF, WCW, TNA, ROH, NWA, NJPW, etc)

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What match are you excited for at WWE Payback 2017?

Neville vs. Austin Aries ... 1 5.88%
 
Randy Orton vs. Bray Wyat... 3 17.65%
 
The Hardy Boyz vs. Cesaro... 3 17.65%
 
Kevin Owens vs. Chris Jer... 4 23.53%
 
Bayley vs. Alexa Bliss (Raw Women's Title) 3 17.65%
 
Seth Rollins vs. Samoa Joe 1 5.88%
 
Roman Reigns vs. Braun Strowman 2 11.76%
 
Total:17
PAOerfulone said:

Blame Creative, Booking, and Vince. 
In terms of Wrestling Ability and Athleticism, this is probably the greatest roster we've ever had! It's right up there with WCW 1997 and the SmackDown Six era. 
On RAW you've got Rollins, Owens, Zayn, Neville, Jericho, the Cruiserweights, Sasha, Charlotte, Bayley, the Club, New Day, Rusev, Reigns, Cesaro, etc. Plus Finn Balor when he comes back.
And on SmackDown you've got the best wrestler on the planet in AJStyles, Ambrose, Cena, Ziggler, Orton, Becky, the Usos, American Alpha, Miz, Bliss, etc.
Add in the NXT Guys that will eventually get called up like Samoa Joe, Bobby Roode, Shinsuke Nakamura, Hideo Itami (if he can stay healthy), and Asuka... I mean, talk about stacked!!!
But in terms of characters, larger than life figures, SUPERSTARS, this is probably the weakest it's ever been. Outside of Cena, who do you have that has or can reach those levels. I don't see anyone that can reach, come close, or even sniff those levels of Hogan, Austin, Rock, Cena popularity under the current environment. And anytime we do get someone who gets close or is on the verge, Creative, Booking, and Vince cut their legs off from underneath. (Ziggler after Survivor Series 2014, Zack Ryder in 2011-12) Hell, it took the fans hijacking the shows AND CM Punk leaving in order for them to get their heads out of their ass and put Daniel Bryan (who was SMOKING WHITE HOT at the time) in the Main Event of WrestleMania!
They just have such a stifling strangle hold over everything having to be done & scripted a certain way to meet the standards Vince wants for his PG setting, that the wrestlers have little to no room to be creative or to truly find themselves, find their character, build that character, and get that character OVER. And because of that, they can't seem to put their heart into it because it's not really them, and if they don't buy or believe in it, how on earth can they expect the fans to?

Such a great post, like the wrestlers and ability who are on the roster right now have such potential but there is almost no story or fued which goes on for more than a single week or two at most, we no longer have on going things like Edge as Champ being in a relationship with Vicky to keep her putting him in easy matches.... no background character like John Laurenitis being a pain for all the up and coming talent... you know, I guess it makes RAW and Smackdown accessible right now because you aren't missing out if you are just jumping into a single ep... but that said there is no real cohesine between each episode outside of the basics of Good Guys/Bad guys.

I guess New Day are the one exception to this, but just about, their gimmick now seems to be based on how much people originally hated them, but now love the ground they pelvic thrust on, I love them for it, but like... are they face? Heel?  they win dirty all the time while also pairing off against Heel teams, very strange writing in the one team who has been on TV for more than a matter of months without revision of gimmick.

Right now for me watching WWE is like watching a hollywood movie full of A list actors... but with M Night Shyamalan as the only writer with absolutely no one telling him that the product is tired and needs to be shaken up more than just drawing a line down the middle... but continuing the same lack of innovation on both sides of the line, sure the Womans wrestling revolution is cool to see... but with such a lack of a decent number of them on either brand we just have the same 3 match combinations of Face/Heel to play around with on either brand, I would almost prefer if they had a joint Womens division and actually introduced more titles for them to fight for, have the Womens champ belt... but also have a Womens Tag Team belt set.

M. Night Shyamalan



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Bad news for Bayley fans:
http://wrestlingnews.co/bayley-suffers-neck-and-shoulder-injury-according-to-wwe/



Ganoncrotch said:
PAOerfulone said:

Blame Creative, Booking, and Vince. 
In terms of Wrestling Ability and Athleticism, this is probably the greatest roster we've ever had! It's right up there with WCW 1997 and the SmackDown Six era. 
On RAW you've got Rollins, Owens, Zayn, Neville, Jericho, the Cruiserweights, Sasha, Charlotte, Bayley, the Club, New Day, Rusev, Reigns, Cesaro, etc. Plus Finn Balor when he comes back.
And on SmackDown you've got the best wrestler on the planet in AJStyles, Ambrose, Cena, Ziggler, Orton, Becky, the Usos, American Alpha, Miz, Bliss, etc.
Add in the NXT Guys that will eventually get called up like Samoa Joe, Bobby Roode, Shinsuke Nakamura, Hideo Itami (if he can stay healthy), and Asuka... I mean, talk about stacked!!!
But in terms of characters, larger than life figures, SUPERSTARS, this is probably the weakest it's ever been. Outside of Cena, who do you have that has or can reach those levels. I don't see anyone that can reach, come close, or even sniff those levels of Hogan, Austin, Rock, Cena popularity under the current environment. And anytime we do get someone who gets close or is on the verge, Creative, Booking, and Vince cut their legs off from underneath. (Ziggler after Survivor Series 2014, Zack Ryder in 2011-12) Hell, it took the fans hijacking the shows AND CM Punk leaving in order for them to get their heads out of their ass and put Daniel Bryan (who was SMOKING WHITE HOT at the time) in the Main Event of WrestleMania!
They just have such a stifling strangle hold over everything having to be done & scripted a certain way to meet the standards Vince wants for his PG setting, that the wrestlers have little to no room to be creative or to truly find themselves, find their character, build that character, and get that character OVER. And because of that, they can't seem to put their heart into it because it's not really them, and if they don't buy or believe in it, how on earth can they expect the fans to?

Such a great post, like the wrestlers and ability who are on the roster right now have such potential but there is almost no story or fued which goes on for more than a single week or two at most, we no longer have on going things like Edge as Champ being in a relationship with Vicky to keep her putting him in easy matches.... no background character like John Laurenitis being a pain for all the up and coming talent... you know, I guess it makes RAW and Smackdown accessible right now because you aren't missing out if you are just jumping into a single ep... but that said there is no real cohesine between each episode outside of the basics of Good Guys/Bad guys.

I guess New Day are the one exception to this, but just about, their gimmick now seems to be based on how much people originally hated them, but now love the ground they pelvic thrust on, I love them for it, but like... are they face? Heel?  they win dirty all the time while also pairing off against Heel teams, very strange writing in the one team who has been on TV for more than a matter of months without revision of gimmick.

Right now for me watching WWE is like watching a hollywood movie full of A list actors... but with M Night Shyamalan as the only writer with absolutely no one telling him that the product is tired and needs to be shaken up more than just drawing a line down the middle... but continuing the same lack of innovation on both sides of the line, sure the Womans wrestling revolution is cool to see... but with such a lack of a decent number of them on either brand we just have the same 3 match combinations of Face/Heel to play around with on either brand, I would almost prefer if they had a joint Womens division and actually introduced more titles for them to fight for, have the Womens champ belt... but also have a Womens Tag Team belt set.

M. Night Shyamalan

And it's times like that when I see and understand the biggest negative of the Brand Split, because the writers haven't done a good job building up stars, and the ones they do inherit were all established down at NXT (The Horsewomen and Paige), I think SmackDown did a good job of providing depth to it's Women's Division to where every woman on that roster can step in, be the champion and work great matches and programs with the others. Becky, Natalya, Naomi, Alexa Bliss, and I'll give Nikki Bella her due as well, and Carmella has some good potential. Meanwhile on RAW, outside of Bayley, Charlotte, and Sasha, the Women's Division just falls off a 30 ft. cliff. Paige is injured and from the looks of all the BS and Drama with her and Del Rio, she ain't coming back any time soon...IF she comes back at all. Nia Jax hasn't been seen in WEEKS. (I have this gut feeling that she's interfering in the Hell in a Cell match with Charlotte and Sasha, I hope to God I'm wrong.) And the lack of depth on RAW has hurt their division. 

Edit: And that M. Night Shyamalan example hit it right on the head. Even when the talent and material can be incredible an potentially amazing, it will go straight to hell if a writer who has no idea what he's doing doesn't know how to book and set up that talent and material correctly.... (Remembers The Last Airbender) *shudders*



I think the overall issue is with this micromanagement of american television. Execs don't want improv. They want everything so micromanaged, to stroke their egos. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if USA Network is part of the problem. "Why isn't there a script for next Monday?"



I want Goldberg to beat Lesnar because I want it to signal Lesnar going away.

What they've done with Lesnar has been absolutely stupid and a massive mistake. It leaves me speechless. They've brought someone back from the past and made them not only unstoppable but then had them embarrass the guys your brand is going to depend on in the future. Absolutely freaking brainless. It has left the impression that A) guys from the past are head and shoulders stronger in the ring, and B) MMA guys are head and shoulders stronger than pro-wrestling guys.

The meaningful booking would have been to have Lesnar in competitive matches to show how good the current roster is. Have him undefeated, I don't care, just have his opponents look good. SUPER LESNAR is only good for a short-term gain but the negative effects are long-term.

Now, at this point, they're going to have to bring in someone to beat Lesnar. Better to have it be someone with a strong emotional imperative, such as a very last match, who isn't going to stick around and humiliate your roster.

Of course, they could bring up Joe or Nakamura and have them beat Lesnar, which would be awesome, but that would also elevate them way above your current roster, which is also very problematic.

The WWE has made a lot of questionable decisions over the years but this situation is just FUBAR.

As for wrestlers now not meeting the level of wrestlers in the past, that's more a symptom of the times. They're limited now in ways they were not before. Compare what Bray Wyatt can do with what characters like the Undertaker or Kane were allowed to do. No one is freaking afraid of him because all can really do is stalk people. I remember the Four Horsemen or the NWO "breaking" people's arms and legs. Heels now are basically just high school bullies. And if your heel isn't over as a heel then your face won't be over as a face.

It's like Wrestling Lite and people can feel the difference.



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Talking Smack, or something like it, where the performers have the opportunity to develop their character, is what wrestling really needs.  It's what was taken away when they starting having the announcers explain all the feuds.

God, look at the freaking fire from Bryan and Corbin.  Did more for establishing Corbin as a heel than anything with Swagger or Ziggler.  He absolutely killed it with that last line.

Ugh, can't embed or link directly to the video so I'll have to link the reddit post:  https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/5889uv/talking_smack_spoilers_baron_corbins_promo/



Holy Jesus that chin lock in the main event on Smackdown had me in tears laughing, you know I have to hand it to them... they are doing it in an odd way, but they're handling that feud in a great way imo, in a way that gets the crowd on their feet, rooting for an absolutely no-chance face against AJ as a heel, also there is little to no chance of injury in a match like this, just solid entertainment all round and builds up the character of AJ as someone who would get angry and end up disqualifying himself.

Also No Chin Music... I fucking lost it laughing.

And yeah... watch the crowd during the match, all on their feet cheering and boo'ing without any risk of harm to the people performing for them, just entertained with the story being presented, well done creative on that angle imo.



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pokoko said:
I want Goldberg to beat Lesnar because I want it to signal Lesnar going away.

What they've done with Lesnar has been absolutely stupid and a massive mistake. It leaves me speechless. They've brought someone back from the past and made them not only unstoppable but then had them embarrass the guys your brand is going to depend on in the future. Absolutely freaking brainless. It has left the impression that A) guys from the past are head and shoulders stronger in the ring, and B) MMA guys are head and shoulders stronger than pro-wrestling guys.

The meaningful booking would have been to have Lesnar in competitive matches to show how good the current roster is. Have him undefeated, I don't care, just have his opponents look good. SUPER LESNAR is only good for a short-term gain but the negative effects are long-term.

Now, at this point, they're going to have to bring in someone to beat Lesnar. Better to have it be someone with a strong emotional imperative, such as a very last match, who isn't going to stick around and humiliate your roster.

Of course, they could bring up Joe or Nakamura and have them beat Lesnar, which would be awesome, but that would also elevate them way above your current roster, which is also very problematic.

The WWE has made a lot of questionable decisions over the years but this situation is just FUBAR.

As for wrestlers now not meeting the level of wrestlers in the past, that's more a symptom of the times. They're limited now in ways they were not before. Compare what Bray Wyatt can do with what characters like the Undertaker or Kane were allowed to do. No one is freaking afraid of him because all can really do is stalk people. I remember the Four Horsemen or the NWO "breaking" people's arms and legs. Heels now are basically just high school bullies. And if your heel isn't over as a heel then your face won't be over as a face.

It's like Wrestling Lite and people can feel the difference.

A) Here's the thing about Brock though. He is a world class, once in a lifetime, FREAK of NATURE athlete. 300 pound monster that can move as quick as Usian Bolt in his prime, a guy who suplexed the Big Show, who was well over 500 pounds at the time, on a regular consistent basis. 
Before going to MMA, Lesnar was the top dog in WWE from 2002 when he beat the Rock, to 2004 when he left. Nobody could even touch him! Then he went to UFC and became the Heavyweight Champion beating Randy Couture, won of the greatest if not THE greatest MMA fighters of all-time, a pro wrestler did that. It's got nothing to do with MMA guys being tougher than pro wrestling guys, it's a matter of Brock Lesnar being simply tougher than whoever steps in the ring/octagon with him. And to the point of him being head and shoulders stronger in the ring...it's because HE IS.

B) This has got to be the stupidest idea I have ever heard. What on God's Green Earth does Goldberg have to gain from beating Brock again? What does that do for anybody who faces Brock going forward and even beats him, it is NOWHERE NEAR as big of a boost as it could have been because this 49-50 year old, semi-retired pro wrestler, who hasn't competed in over 12 years already did it in his last match. If anything it would bury the current roster EVEN MORE! It would STILL humiliate the roster! Because the fact at a 49-50 year old, semi-retired pro wrestler, who hasn't stepped in the ring in 12 years, did something that they couldn't do. Of course they're going to look weak! You were complaining about how they have booked it so that it looks like the guys from the past are heads and shoulders above the current guys today, yet what you're suggesting would do EXACTLY that!

C) It's not just about the rub and push that Joe or Nakamura, or whichever full time guy beats him, I'd even take Reigns at this point. But also the guys they face after them on a full time basis and more importantly the guys who BEAT them!
For example: Say Nakamura beats Lesnar. Nakamura looks incredible, looks unstoppable, unbeatable, he looks like a million bucks. Give him a run with the World Championship, let him run with it for a good 5-6 months. Then have AJ Styles come back, they tear the house down with another classic like they did at Wrestle Kingdom 10, Styles goes over, now Styles looks like a million bucks! Then Styles gets a long run, then Ambrose beats him, now AMBROSE looks like a million bucks. 
Another example: Joe beats Brock. Joe gets a Universal Title run for 5-6 months. Then Owens beats him. OWENS looks like a million bucks. Owens gets a long run, then Cesaro beats him. Now CESARO looks like a million bucks! Etc. etc. etc.
Having a current, full-time guy beat this monster, in the short AND long term is best for the brand because it makes the current, full-time roster of guys we have today look strong and it slowly but surely elevates them over a lengthy period of time!



pokoko said:
I want Goldberg to beat Lesnar because I want it to signal Lesnar going away.

What they've done with Lesnar has been absolutely stupid and a massive mistake. It leaves me speechless. They've brought someone back from the past and made them not only unstoppable but then had them embarrass the guys your brand is going to depend on in the future. Absolutely freaking brainless. It has left the impression that A) guys from the past are head and shoulders stronger in the ring, and B) MMA guys are head and shoulders stronger than pro-wrestling guys.

The meaningful booking would have been to have Lesnar in competitive matches to show how good the current roster is. Have him undefeated, I don't care, just have his opponents look good. SUPER LESNAR is only good for a short-term gain but the negative effects are long-term.

Now, at this point, they're going to have to bring in someone to beat Lesnar. Better to have it be someone with a strong emotional imperative, such as a very last match, who isn't going to stick around and humiliate your roster.

Of course, they could bring up Joe or Nakamura and have them beat Lesnar, which would be awesome, but that would also elevate them way above your current roster, which is also very problematic.

The WWE has made a lot of questionable decisions over the years but this situation is just FUBAR.

As for wrestlers now not meeting the level of wrestlers in the past, that's more a symptom of the times. They're limited now in ways they were not before. Compare what Bray Wyatt can do with what characters like the Undertaker or Kane were allowed to do. No one is freaking afraid of him because all can really do is stalk people. I remember the Four Horsemen or the NWO "breaking" people's arms and legs. Heels now are basically just high school bullies. And if your heel isn't over as a heel then your face won't be over as a face.

It's like Wrestling Lite and people can feel the difference.

Here's the thing about Brock. He is a FREAK OF NATURE, once in a lifetime athlete. 300 pound guy who could move as quick as Usian Bolt in his prime. Suplex a 500 pound Big Show on a regular basis. He was the top dog in WWE before he left in 2004. Then he goes to UFC, becomes Heavyweight Champion by BEATING RANDY COUTURE! One of the greatest MMA fighters of all-time! A WWE guy did that! It isn't a matter of MMA guys being tougher than pro wrestling guys, ESPECIALLY since said MMA guy was a pro wrestling guy before hand. It's a matter of Brock Lesnar being tougher than anyone he steps in the ring/octagon with.

That has got to be the stupidest idea I've ever head. What does Goldberg have to gain with it? What does the current roster have to gain from it? That would just make them look EVEN WORSE! The fact at a 49-50 year old, semi-retired guy came in and did what they couldn't do.

It's not just what Nakamura or Joe would look like, but the eventual full-time guy who beats THEM.
Example: Nakamura beats Lesnar. Nakamura looks like a million bucks. Gets a long title reign, AJ Styles beats him in a classic. STYLES looks like a million bucks. 



PAOerfulone said:
pokoko said:
I want Goldberg to beat Lesnar because I want it to signal Lesnar going away.

What they've done with Lesnar has been absolutely stupid and a massive mistake. It leaves me speechless. They've brought someone back from the past and made them not only unstoppable but then had them embarrass the guys your brand is going to depend on in the future. Absolutely freaking brainless. It has left the impression that A) guys from the past are head and shoulders stronger in the ring, and B) MMA guys are head and shoulders stronger than pro-wrestling guys.

The meaningful booking would have been to have Lesnar in competitive matches to show how good the current roster is. Have him undefeated, I don't care, just have his opponents look good. SUPER LESNAR is only good for a short-term gain but the negative effects are long-term.

Now, at this point, they're going to have to bring in someone to beat Lesnar. Better to have it be someone with a strong emotional imperative, such as a very last match, who isn't going to stick around and humiliate your roster.

Of course, they could bring up Joe or Nakamura and have them beat Lesnar, which would be awesome, but that would also elevate them way above your current roster, which is also very problematic.

The WWE has made a lot of questionable decisions over the years but this situation is just FUBAR.

As for wrestlers now not meeting the level of wrestlers in the past, that's more a symptom of the times. They're limited now in ways they were not before. Compare what Bray Wyatt can do with what characters like the Undertaker or Kane were allowed to do. No one is freaking afraid of him because all can really do is stalk people. I remember the Four Horsemen or the NWO "breaking" people's arms and legs. Heels now are basically just high school bullies. And if your heel isn't over as a heel then your face won't be over as a face.

It's like Wrestling Lite and people can feel the difference.

A) Here's the thing about Brock though. He is a world class, once in a lifetime, FREAK of NATURE athlete. 300 pound monster that can move as quick as Usian Bolt in his prime, a guy who suplexed the Big Show, who was well over 500 pounds at the time, on a regular consistent basis. 
Before going to MMA, Lesnar was the top dog in WWE from 2002 when he beat the Rock, to 2004 when he left. Nobody could even touch him! Then he went to UFC and became the Heavyweight Champion beating Randy Couture, won of the greatest if not THE greatest MMA fighters of all-time, a pro wrestler did that. It's got nothing to do with MMA guys being tougher than pro wrestling guys, it's a matter of Brock Lesnar being simply tougher than whoever steps in the ring/octagon with him. And to the point of him being head and shoulders stronger in the ring...it's because HE IS.

B) This has got to be the stupidest idea I have ever heard. What on God's Green Earth does Goldberg have to gain from beating Brock again? What does that do for anybody who faces Brock going forward and even beats him, it is NOWHERE NEAR as big of a boost as it could have been because this 49-50 year old, semi-retired pro wrestler, who hasn't competed in over 12 years already did it in his last match. If anything it would bury the current roster EVEN MORE! It would STILL humiliate the roster! Because the fact at a 49-50 year old, semi-retired pro wrestler, who hasn't stepped in the ring in 12 years, did something that they couldn't do. Of course they're going to look weak! You were complaining about how they have booked it so that it looks like the guys from the past are heads and shoulders above the current guys today, yet what you're suggesting would do EXACTLY that!

C) It's not just about the rub and push that Joe or Nakamura, or whichever full time guy beats him, I'd even take Reigns at this point. But also the guys they face after them on a full time basis and more importantly the guys who BEAT them!
For example: Say Nakamura beats Lesnar. Nakamura looks incredible, looks unstoppable, unbeatable, he looks like a million bucks. Give him a run with the World Championship, let him run with it for a good 5-6 months. Then have AJ Styles come back, they tear the house down with another classic like they did at Wrestle Kingdom 10, Styles goes over, now Styles looks like a million bucks! Then Styles gets a long run, then Ambrose beats him, now AMBROSE looks like a million bucks. 
Another example: Joe beats Brock. Joe gets a Universal Title run for 5-6 months. Then Owens beats him. OWENS looks like a million bucks. Owens gets a long run, then Cesaro beats him. Now CESARO looks like a million bucks! Etc. etc. etc.
Having a current, full-time guy beat this monster, in the short AND long term is best for the brand because it makes the current, full-time roster of guys we have today look strong and it slowly but surely elevates them over a lengthy period of time!

To be honest, I stop reading when you decided to you had to be insulting over fucking wrestling.  If you can't talk about this respectfully then I want nothing to do with you.