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Forums - Gaming - Dark Souls (The Original) Really isn't that good.

BraLoD said:

My 7th gen excuse is still up!

As I said earlier, your loss.



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mZuzek said:
I don't like trial and error. I think it's stupid. But if well designed, even I can think it is passable. However, Dark Souls is not well designed for that purpose, because whenever you die, it punishes you EXTREMELY HARD by making you go back levels, lose a shitload of gear, going back to the last bonfire and whatnot (yeah sure you can recover your stuff, if you don't die on the way there because you're frustrated).

Broadly speaking, I don't think Dark Souls is trial and error, but there's a couple of things you have to get in the habit of for it to not be trial and error.

First off, make sure to read messages left by other players. The game banks on you having those as a way to get around notifying you of things that it would need to otherwise in order to be fair. For example, there's a part in Dark Souls 3 where a giant boulder falls down and starts chasing you down a flight of stairs, Indiana Jones style.  There's no indication that this will happen outside of a bunch of messages right by the stairs that alert you to a trap and to "try rolling." If you aren't playing online, then, yes, the game can be more than a bit unfair at times.

Secondly is to just be very, very careful. Aggro-ing too many enemies at the same time is almost a guaranteed death sentence. Make sure you're checking out every area as closely as possible before you enter it, or you'll oftentimes miss enemies waiting to ambush you.

I'm not as definitively on the side of "Dark Souls is tough, but fair." Dark Souls is certainly tough, but there are times where it definitely leans towards being unfair (especially with some of DS2's hitboxes). With that said, if you make sure to scout your surroundings out well, you can avoid most non-boss related deaths, and it's incredibly rewarding to avoid dying because you noticed something and prepared accordingly. There's a feeling of outsmarting the game that I enjoy quite a bit.

With that said, I agree that DS2 and DS1 haven't aged particularly well. DS1's framerate stutters in particular are the big reason why I'd like for it to join the remastering train for current gen.



Dark Souls is among my top five favourite games of all time, so I do disagree with your opinion quite a bit. I almost never felt like the game was being unfair, which is something that definitely happens in Dark Souls 2 in quite a few places, although I still think it's an excellent game as well. Pretty much every death I had in the first Dark Souls was ultimately my own fault, mostly due to just not paying enough attention to my surroundings.



That is really surprising. Dark Souls 1 is a freaking masterpiece and arguable the best game of the last console generation imo.



mZuzek said:
That's funny. Dark Souls is the only Souls game I've ever played. DS2 had just been released and on the back of the massive hype train, I got a chance to play the first DS, so I tried it out to see what the hype was all about.

I played it for maybe 2 or 3 hours and absolutely loathed it. Never went back to this franchise again.

Everything about the game was just frustrating. It wasn't a challenging/rewarding game, it was just a frustrating and unfair mess. The world is ugly and confusing as hell, too. I remember getting to a place where I had to choose between two paths, one of them looked like the main path whereas the other one looked kinda like a sidequest-ish one - so I take the side one to see what it's all about and great, I'm dead because there's a stupid monster I'm clearly not yet ready to fight.

I don't like trial and error. I think it's stupid. But if well designed, even I can think it is passable. However, Dark Souls is not well designed for that purpose, because whenever you die, it punishes you EXTREMELY HARD by making you go back levels, lose a shitload of gear, going back to the last bonfire and whatnot (yeah sure you can recover your stuff, if you don't die on the way there because you're frustrated).

Eventually, I reached a bridge with a dragon on the other side, and died just as I stepped on it (the brdige, not the dragon lol). I thought that was stupid enough and stopped playing, but the next day I decided to give the game one more chance. I managed to go through the bridge carefully enough, and ended up going into some weird-ass sewers, only to be suddenly attacked by a rat-like monster, find out I'm poisoned and can't do anything about it except watch my character slowly die for a few minutes. And that was that. After that happened, I just gave up and quit playing that game.

All of that is exactly why my copy of Bloodborne sits under my TV collecting dust. It's not that the those games are too difficult, it's that they're flawed from a design standpoint. Some people love those flaws, I do not.



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pray4mojo said:
mZuzek said:
That's funny. Dark Souls is the only Souls game I've ever played. DS2 had just been released and on the back of the massive hype train, I got a chance to play the first DS, so I tried it out to see what the hype was all about.

I played it for maybe 2 or 3 hours and absolutely loathed it. Never went back to this franchise again.

Everything about the game was just frustrating. It wasn't a challenging/rewarding game, it was just a frustrating and unfair mess. The world is ugly and confusing as hell, too. I remember getting to a place where I had to choose between two paths, one of them looked like the main path whereas the other one looked kinda like a sidequest-ish one - so I take the side one to see what it's all about and great, I'm dead because there's a stupid monster I'm clearly not yet ready to fight.

I don't like trial and error. I think it's stupid. But if well designed, even I can think it is passable. However, Dark Souls is not well designed for that purpose, because whenever you die, it punishes you EXTREMELY HARD by making you go back levels, lose a shitload of gear, going back to the last bonfire and whatnot (yeah sure you can recover your stuff, if you don't die on the way there because you're frustrated).

Eventually, I reached a bridge with a dragon on the other side, and died just as I stepped on it (the brdige, not the dragon lol). I thought that was stupid enough and stopped playing, but the next day I decided to give the game one more chance. I managed to go through the bridge carefully enough, and ended up going into some weird-ass sewers, only to be suddenly attacked by a rat-like monster, find out I'm poisoned and can't do anything about it except watch my character slowly die for a few minutes. And that was that. After that happened, I just gave up and quit playing that game.

All of that is exactly why my copy of Bloodborne sits under my TV collecting dust. It's not that the those games are too difficult, it's that they're flawed from a design standpoint. Some people love those flaws, I do not.

I wouldn't call it a flaw, it's the way they are - you either like it or not.

Now, I finished all 3 Dark Souls, so obviously I don't mind it that much, though I definitelly find them to be tedious at times (hardly ever they are actually difficult, my 9 year old son is playing them with no problem) - for my taste, I'd rather have all that spectacular level design in Gothic-alike RPG, but at the end of the day I'm fine with little dose of tedious in actual DS games since I find certain elements of those games to be really great.

At the end of the day it's personal preference, not design flaw.



HoloDust said:
pray4mojo said:

All of that is exactly why my copy of Bloodborne sits under my TV collecting dust. It's not that the those games are too difficult, it's that they're flawed from a design standpoint. Some people love those flaws, I do not.

I wouldn't call it a flaw, it's the way they are - you either like it or not.

Now, I finished all 3 Dark Souls, so obviously I don't mind it that much, though I definitelly find them to be tedious at times (hardly ever they are actually difficult, my 9 year old son is playing them with no problem) - for my taste, I'd rather have all that spectacular level design in Gothic-alike RPG, but at the end of the day I'm fine with little dose of tedious in actual DS games since I find certain elements of those games to be really great.

At the end of the day it's personal preference, not design flaw.

Well, design flaws are always flaws by definition of the person playing them. What is a flaw to me may not be one to you. To me, taking away 40 minutes of hard earned, skillfull, mind numbingly boring grinding is a flaw. You don't do that. If there were no RPG elements and need to level up (yes, 99% of the public needs to level up to beat that game) then fine. I can't chalk that up to just being tough as nails. But Bloodborne requires that I grind and grinding is already punishment enough. Taking all that hard work away is absolute bullshit imo. I earned it. It's mine. If I die, it should remain with me. Take away the in game progress. Take away everything I did. But stripping me of an hours worth of grinding is just bad design in my opinion. 



pray4mojo said:
HoloDust said:

I wouldn't call it a flaw, it's the way they are - you either like it or not.

Now, I finished all 3 Dark Souls, so obviously I don't mind it that much, though I definitelly find them to be tedious at times (hardly ever they are actually difficult, my 9 year old son is playing them with no problem) - for my taste, I'd rather have all that spectacular level design in Gothic-alike RPG, but at the end of the day I'm fine with little dose of tedious in actual DS games since I find certain elements of those games to be really great.

At the end of the day it's personal preference, not design flaw.

Well, design flaws are always flaws by definition of the person playing them. What is a flaw to me may not be one to you. To me, taking away 40 minutes of hard earned, skillfull, mind numbingly boring grinding is a flaw. You don't do that. If there were no RPG elements and need to level up (yes, 99% of the public needs to level up to beat that game) then fine. I can't chalk that up to just being tough as nails. But Bloodborne requires that I grind and grinding is already punishment enough. Taking all that hard work away is absolute bullshit imo. I earned it. It's mine. If I die, it should remain with me. Take away the in game progress. Take away everything I did. But stripping me of an hours worth of grinding is just bad design in my opinion. 

Yeah, I hate grinding and as I said I find DS tedious at times...but it's not that they actively force you to grind much. Honestly, I barely grinded in any of Souls, and that most likely made my playthroughs harder (though, apart from some bosses, DS are really not that hard games), but I simply  didn't have the patience for that (and only times I really got pissed are when camera fucks me up and not my mistakes). On the other hand my 9 year old is playing DS1 and he's grinding like crazy...to the point where I'm threatening him to erase his save if he doesn't proceed - he wants to make game easier for himself and he's happy to grind almost indefinitely...so there's a choice really in how you play the game.

As I said, I'd be much happier to see all the effort of making great levels in DS put into proper Gothic-alike action-RPG, but the games are good by themsleves if you accept design philosophy behind them - be prepared. And be patient.

Besides,  game does not take away your hard earned souls - that would be if it resets everything to last bonfire...but you still have the chance to go and collect them after you die. And if you are prepared and patient you will collect them and proceed or turn back and level up. Your choice.



Wright said:
Azuren said:

And was still the best game in the year it was released.

As much as I love Dark Souls 2, it wasn't better than The Evil Within.

No.



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pray4mojo said:
HoloDust said:

I wouldn't call it a flaw, it's the way they are - you either like it or not.

Now, I finished all 3 Dark Souls, so obviously I don't mind it that much, though I definitelly find them to be tedious at times (hardly ever they are actually difficult, my 9 year old son is playing them with no problem) - for my taste, I'd rather have all that spectacular level design in Gothic-alike RPG, but at the end of the day I'm fine with little dose of tedious in actual DS games since I find certain elements of those games to be really great.

At the end of the day it's personal preference, not design flaw.

Well, design flaws are always flaws by definition of the person playing them. What is a flaw to me may not be one to you. To me, taking away 40 minutes of hard earned, skillfull, mind numbingly boring grinding is a flaw. You don't do that. If there were no RPG elements and need to level up (yes, 99% of the public needs to level up to beat that game) then fine. I can't chalk that up to just being tough as nails. But Bloodborne requires that I grind and grinding is already punishment enough. Taking all that hard work away is absolute bullshit imo. I earned it. It's mine. If I die, it should remain with me. Take away the in game progress. Take away everything I did. But stripping me of an hours worth of grinding is just bad design in my opinion. 

you dont lose your stats or level by losing how is it taking it away?



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