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Forums - General Discussion - Shooting Spree at Munich Mall: 10 Dead, Shooter German-Iranian

Azuren on 23 July 2016
SuperNova said:
Azuren said:
We're about four more of these away from a war.

War against whom?

This was an amok run mall shooting. He acted alone and was not politically or religiously motivated. He was frustated and mentally instable. This was not an act of religious terror. No one declared war after Columbine or the westroads mall shooting either.

If anything we need to improve social strucktures. We need more staff at schools and kindergardens. The warning signs need to reconized earlier and more recurces need to be pit into prevention.

General consensus says "the middle east".

 

I'm not saying "let's go to war". I'm saying if this keeps up, then there will be a demand for blood (probably Iran's).



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Teeqoz on 23 July 2016

The daily mail is horribly outdated. So many things there that have later been confirmed to be wrong, so it isn't at all a credible source.



Stellar_Fungk on 23 July 2016
Azuren said:
SuperNova said:

War against whom?

This was an amok run mall shooting. He acted alone and was not politically or religiously motivated. He was frustated and mentally instable. This was not an act of religious terror. No one declared war after Columbine or the westroads mall shooting either.

If anything we need to improve social strucktures. We need more staff at schools and kindergardens. The warning signs need to reconized earlier and more recurces need to be pit into prevention.

General consensus says "the middle east".

 

I'm not saying "let's go to war". I'm saying if this keeps up, then there will be a demand for blood (probably Iran's).

Why Iran? Iran isn't funding ISIS or the terror attacks here in Europe.



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SuperNova on 23 July 2016
ratuscafoarterea said:
Peh said:

What I received from the news is that he was being mobbed and was also mentally ill. There is currently the rumor that he failed his school graduation. He also took Breivik as an idol and informed himself about several Amok cases.

Origin or religion takes no part in it.

In the Eastern European media (you know, the one that is not controlled by mama-Merkel) it has been reported that the attacker shouted allahu akbar. Also in the link that I've posted for you earlier, there is a video where the attacker said that he is German and that he is committing the mass-murder because he has been bullied for seven years. Bullied for what? Bullied for being a muslim? Also, the media is reporting that he had all of this material about mass-shooting ….. of course he had material about mass-shooting, he was planning one, it doesn’t mean that he committed the mass-shooting just because he was obsess with Breivik.

and he're is a Western link to read for you

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3703705/Major-police-investigation-way-shots-fired-shopping-centre-Munich.html

 

And who gave the media that information? The same people shouting racist abuse at the perpetrator? Some hysterical teenagers going into post-traumatic shock?

The recent actual religiously motivated axe attack is fresh in everyones minds. I'm not saying there's malice involved, but witness accounts are often unreliable. People have their own fears, thoughts and agendas and then the media comes in and adds their own spin to it as well.

The official police statement is, that this was a perpetrator who was acting alone, with not ties to IS. The very assumption everyone is jumping to, that a german of iranian decent must be an islamist was probably part of the reason he felt excluded and even did this in the first place.

I said this earlier, but his very behaviour we see in the video clip, indicates that he wanted to be accepted in mainstream german society, but felt rejected. He tried to explain himself to the people shouting at him. A religious extremist has no reason to do that. If anything, everyone else is a non-believer unworthy of anything other than being shot. There's also no need for self-justification (the very thing he was trying to do) since god is their justification.

Also the fact that he killed himself with plenty of ammo left instead of continuing on until shot by the police does not fit with a religiously motivated attack. Those are people on a mission. And they would not abort until there is no way to continue on.

This pattern just does not fit with islamic terror. Instead it fits perfectly with Columbine, Winneden and other school/mall shootings comitted by mentally unstable people who felt rejected by society. So as much as you ask everyone to question western european media, I'll ask you to be as sceptical and analytical of the eastern european one as well.



ratuscafoarterea on 23 July 2016
SuperNova said:
ratuscafoarterea said:

In the Eastern European media (you know, the one that is not controlled by mama-Merkel) it has been reported that the attacker shouted allahu akbar. Also in the link that I've posted for you earlier, there is a video where the attacker said that he is German and that he is committing the mass-murder because he has been bullied for seven years. Bullied for what? Bullied for being a muslim? Also, the media is reporting that he had all of this material about mass-shooting ….. of course he had material about mass-shooting, he was planning one, it doesn’t mean that he committed the mass-shooting just because he was obsess with Breivik.

and he're is a Western link to read for you

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3703705/Major-police-investigation-way-shots-fired-shopping-centre-Munich.html

 

And who gave the media that information? The same people shouting racist abuse at the perpetrator? Some hysterical teenagers going into post-traumatic shock?

The recent actual religiously motivated axe attack is fresh in everyones minds. I'm not saying there's malice involved, but witness accounts are often unreliable. People have their own fears, thoughts and agendas and then the media comes in and adds their own spin to it as well.

The official police statement is, that this was a perpetrator who was acting alone, with not ties to IS. The very assumption everyone is jumping to, that a german of iranian decent must be an islamist was probably part of the reason he felt excluded and even did this in the first place.

I said this earlier, but his very behaviour we see in the video clip, indicates that he wanted to be accepted in mainstream german society, but felt rejected. He tried to explain himself to the people shouting at him. A religious extremist has no reason to do that. If anything, everyone else is a non-believer unworthy of anything other than being shot. There's also no need for self-justification (the very thing he was trying to do) since god is their justification.

Also the fact that he killed himself with plenty of ammo left instead of continuing on until shot by the police does not fit with a religiously motivated attack. Those are people on a mission. And they would not abort until there is no way to continue on.

This pattern just does not fit with islamic terror. Instead it fits perfectly with Columbine, Winneden and other school/mall shootings comitted by mentally unstable people who felt rejected by society. So as much as you ask everyone to question western european media, I'll ask you to be as sceptical and analytical of the eastern european one as well.

I didn't say anything about this being an attack linked to IS. My point was that he decided to commit this mass-murder because as a muslim he feel that he was rejected and bullied by the German society, even tho the Germans are some of the most open minded people in Europe. It’s still a mass-shooting that has links to religion and the identity to a certain group that doesn’t want to fully integrate. You say that he didn’t use all of his ammunition, how you don't know that he  realized he got surrounded by the police and he decided it’s time to end his life?  Also, the western media is trying to say that this attacker was mentally ill. Really? a 18 years old mentally ill loner, living in Germany (a country with some of the toughest gun laws), somehow managed to get his hands on a Glock and 300 9mm rounds. That sounds about right ….. only for blind horse



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Teeqoz on 23 July 2016
Aura7541 said:
RolStoppable said:

Your argument was bad. Or have you ever heard of an islamic attack where the killer fled the scene only to shoot himself right afterwards? That's why I said that it's probable that the killing spree wasn't an islamic attack, but rather is an amok run because the pattern fits such a crime.

How an attacker goes about his killing spree determines what his motivation can be. Crimes cannot only be analyzed from start to finish, but they can also be tracked back from the end to the start. Just because you don't grasp my thought process doesn't mean that it was illogical.

In my response to you in the other thread I said that one piece of the limited information is that there have been a lot of conflicting eye witness reports. Based on the information that the ninth dead person is probably a killer, I had no reason to believe that Muslim woman for one second. Likewise, the likelyhood that there was more than one shooter was also slim based on the presumable suicide, so I didn't put much stock into the eye witness reports that suggested three killers were at work and instead was leaning towards a single person being the culprit.

Actually, the bolded argument is bad because this is a No True Scotsman fallacy and reinforces my argument that there's no one criteria for what constitutes an Islamic attack. Just because that scenario doesn't typically happen in an Islamic attack doesn't mean it automatically makes it not one. For example, what if the killer commits suicide because he thinks it is more honorable to kill himself than being killed by infidels? Or perhaps after he killed nine people, he has doubts on whether his actions were justified and kills himself in regret. This is why the motivation is more important than the pattern because an Islamic attack can go many different ways even if it doesn't go the way it "typically" does.

First of all, that's not at all what the No True Scotsman fallacy is about. The No True Scotsman fallacy is about adding ad hominem extra requirements to your original argument/point when new evidence arises that proves your original point was wrong. It doesn't have anything to do with the way you define a group, unless you ad-hominem redefine the group when evidence proves your original definition wrong. Since Rol never changed his argument ad-hominem, it isn't a No True Scotsman fallacy. Second of all, Rol didn't say that it was flat out impossible that it was an islamic terror attack, just that it was very unlikely based on the patterns in the attack. Of course you can make statements about the likely motivation based on the pattern of a criminal incident. If a white middle class family are killed in their home, and all the valuables in the house are gone, you can say that it's extremely unlikely that it was a hate crime, and that it most likely was a burglary gone wrong. This is how police actually work when trying to find a profile for possible suspects. Could the hypothetical incident described above be a hate crime? Yes. Is it likely? Hell no. Same applies to this shooting. Based on the pattern in the attack it seemed very unlikely that it was an islamic terror attack.



gintama on 23 July 2016

So if he is a German , then it is not a terrosist attack ?
Is terrorism is now attached to islamic ? (go see all the posts in this thread).
and he did this because he was a deranged man? the one that did an act of terror in NICE was also a deranged man.
Anyone who do an act of terror regardless of where he was born , is a terrorist , must be killed , and of course not associated to all of the other groups of people he is associated with (race , country , religion ,...).
I will not say all german are terrorists , or Iranians are too .
I will not say that USA is a country full of killers or racists (despite the news we see every day ).
YOU HAVE A BRAIN , USE IT !



SuperNova on 24 July 2016
ratuscafoarterea said:
SuperNova said:

And who gave the media that information? The same people shouting racist abuse at the perpetrator? Some hysterical teenagers going into post-traumatic shock?

The recent actual religiously motivated axe attack is fresh in everyones minds. I'm not saying there's malice involved, but witness accounts are often unreliable. People have their own fears, thoughts and agendas and then the media comes in and adds their own spin to it as well.

The official police statement is, that this was a perpetrator who was acting alone, with not ties to IS. The very assumption everyone is jumping to, that a german of iranian decent must be an islamist was probably part of the reason he felt excluded and even did this in the first place.

I said this earlier, but his very behaviour we see in the video clip, indicates that he wanted to be accepted in mainstream german society, but felt rejected. He tried to explain himself to the people shouting at him. A religious extremist has no reason to do that. If anything, everyone else is a non-believer unworthy of anything other than being shot. There's also no need for self-justification (the very thing he was trying to do) since god is their justification.

Also the fact that he killed himself with plenty of ammo left instead of continuing on until shot by the police does not fit with a religiously motivated attack. Those are people on a mission. And they would not abort until there is no way to continue on.

This pattern just does not fit with islamic terror. Instead it fits perfectly with Columbine, Winneden and other school/mall shootings comitted by mentally unstable people who felt rejected by society. So as much as you ask everyone to question western european media, I'll ask you to be as sceptical and analytical of the eastern european one as well.

I didn't say anything about this being an attack linked to IS. My point was that he decided to commit this mass-murder because as a muslim he feel that he was rejected and bullied by the German society, even tho the Germans are some of the most open minded people in Europe. It’s still a mass-shooting that has links to religion and the identity to a certain group that doesn’t want to fully integrate. You say that he didn’t use all of his ammunition, how you don't know that he  realized he got surrounded by the police and he decided it’s time to end his life?  Also, the western media is trying to say that this attacker was mentally ill. Really? a 18 years old mentally ill loner, living in Germany (a country with some of the toughest gun laws), somehow managed to get his hands on a Glock and 300 9mm rounds. That sounds about right ….. only for blind horse

And my point is that his religion is probably at best tangentially related to this crime. His whole attack pattern speaks of someone motivated by frustration and desperation. Not someone on a religious mission.

Yes, he might have been discriminated against in life because of his religion (if he even followed the Islam faith, that is, we don't really know at this point), but according to all that we know this didn't drive him to religious extremism.

This attack seems unlikely to have been motivated by religion and rather by social issues. When a christian man kills someone in a mugging you don't file that under a religiously motivated attack either, do you?

Also, a mentally ill 17-year old loner, living in germany (a country with some of the toughest gun laws), somehow managed to get his hands on a whole host of guns and decided to shoot up a school, get into a chase with the police, shoot some bystanders while on the run and finally shoot himself himself in the head during a mexican standoff wth the police. It happened before. In Winneden. There's president for this.

And if you're asking: Where did he get the gun? Probably the same way the Winneden shooter did. Daddy didn't lock hin gun carbinet, as required by the law. It is not impossible in Germany to get a gun, far from it. It is true that aquiring a license requires thorough training and psych evaluation, but there's alot of sports shooting clubs and hunters unions, where even youths get trained with firearms, especially in Bavaria wich is a very conservative part of the country.

So yeah, a kid in treatment for depression could very well have gotten his hands on a gun if his family didn't follow the gun laws.



Lawlight on 24 July 2016

Where did he get the gun? It was a glock? Can you buy glocks in Germany?



okr on 24 July 2016

Latest information from German newspapers (not confirmed by police yet):

He bought the Glock (registered in Slovakia) via Darknet.