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Forums - Sports Discussion - Why does Messi needs to win a major tournament in order to be compared to Pele and Maradona?

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Goatseye said:
contestgamer said:

Yeah, not choking on the biggest stages of the world makes you better than choking.

What does it mean to choke exactly?

 

Being the best player on the planet and failing to make a penalty kick when the finals depends on it is choking. Performing well below your usual levels in the biggest moments of the sport, when everyone is looking at you to deliver the goods -  such as in the international finals - is a form of choking.

You cant be the greatest of all time and under perform in the finals again and again and again. You certainly can't be so weak as to miss a penalty kick to seal the deal and then "retire" (quit) to your country because you dont believe in yourself enough to get it done next time. I can guarantee that Maradona would not have quit on his country had he lost a finals on a penalty kick he botched. Messi is not as mentally strong as he is gifted. Compare him to Michael Jordan and the difference in intangibles, killer instinct and ruthless competitiveness are clear. Messi is gifted, but he is simply not a closer and not a killer out on that field.



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REDZONE said:
Goatseye said:

Choking is the opposite of what happened in the field. There were various opportunities created for goal by Argentina, sometimes you need a little luck and Bravo on an average day.

This is pure excuses,choking is exactly what they did today again,third final straight.

They 100% choked, again. Di Maria is a case ot be studied, he gets injuried on 100% the finals he plays. Higuaín can't score on a final if his life depended on it and Messi fails on every decisive moment. I think this Argentina x Chile match proves why Messi needs to win an intenational tourney to be put up there with the best ever, if he doesn't ppl will always remember him as the dude who lost 4 finals for Argentina one of witch he kicked a penaty on the 3rd ring of the stands.



contestgamer said:
Goatseye said:

What does it mean to choke exactly?

 

Being the best player on the planet and failing to make a penalty kick when the finals depends on it is choking. Performing well below your usual levels in the biggest moments of the sport, when everyone is looking at you to deliver the goods -  such as in the international finals - is a form of choking.

You cant be the greatest of all time and under perform in the finals again and again and again. You certainly can't be so weak as to miss a penalty kick to seal the deal and then "retire" (quit) to your country because you dont believe in yourself enough to get it done next time. I can guarantee that Maradona would not have quit on his country had he lost a finals on a penalty kick he botched. Messi is not as mentally strong as he is gifted. Compare him to Michael Jordan and the difference in intangibles, killer instinct and ruthless competitiveness are clear. Messi is gifted, but he is simply not a closer and not a killer out on that field.

Scoring penalty kicks is not a science, Vidal missed a penalty although he played superbly well during 120mn. He had Argentina's attack flowing during the game. Soccer is more than scoring goals.



Goatseye said:
contestgamer said:

Yeah, not choking on the biggest stages of the world makes you better than choking.

What does it mean to choke exactly? the definition of "choke" in football terms,

The definition of "choke" in football terms is failing to come to the fore in three consecutive finals running.You keep saying Chile is a way better "team" haha.Have you forgotten Argentina had beaten them early in the competition when,wait for it..............it didn't matter.And they're so much better than Argentina that it had to be settled on penalties.Point is,they were good enough to reach three finals but just couldn't handle the pressure.



REDZONE said:
Goatseye said:

What does it mean to choke exactly? the definition of "choke" in football terms,

The definition of "choke" in football terms is failing to come to the fore in three consecutive finals running.You keep saying Chile is a way better "team" haha.Have you forgotten Argentina had beaten them early in the competition when,wait for it..............it didn't matter.And they're so much better than Argentina that it had to be settled on penalties.Point is,they were good enough to reach three finals but just couldn't handle the pressure.

Argentina had many opportunities to win the game. The ball didn't go in because they're not playing against dolls.

I don't think you know the difference between a team and a bunch of players. In Chile everyone attacks and everyone defends; the solidarity of players there is more common than in Argentina where tactics are confusing and somewhat outdated.



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Goatseye said:
contestgamer said:

 

Being the best player on the planet and failing to make a penalty kick when the finals depends on it is choking. Performing well below your usual levels in the biggest moments of the sport, when everyone is looking at you to deliver the goods -  such as in the international finals - is a form of choking.

You cant be the greatest of all time and under perform in the finals again and again and again. You certainly can't be so weak as to miss a penalty kick to seal the deal and then "retire" (quit) to your country because you dont believe in yourself enough to get it done next time. I can guarantee that Maradona would not have quit on his country had he lost a finals on a penalty kick he botched. Messi is not as mentally strong as he is gifted. Compare him to Michael Jordan and the difference in intangibles, killer instinct and ruthless competitiveness are clear. Messi is gifted, but he is simply not a closer and not a killer out on that field.

Scoring penalty kicks is not a science, Vidal missed a penalty although he played superbly well during 120mn. He had Argentina's attack flowing during the game. Soccer is more than scoring goals.

Vidal doesnt matter, he's not even in the same league as Messi. To be the greatest you need to be a closer and show up on the biggest stages. Messi as the greatest in the world, the greatest on his team and some would argue the greatest of all time has a responsibility to close the deal. He failed. Pnalty kicks arent luck, if they were everyone would make and miss them at the same rate. They're equal part skill and ice cold veins. Messi is missing the latter and him quitting like he did proves that. Messi has a history of choking penalties away, just see chelsea in the finals. You cant make a claim to be the greatest of all time if you are unable to close the deal, again and again and again. In the NBA lergacies are made in the 4th quarter and what you do to close the game out. You need to close that deal in soccer too and it comes down to scoring a goal. If you're a forward and the game hinges on one goal difference, your job is to close that deal by scoring that goal. Not defer to someone else and hope they score it. You take it in to your own hands. See Zidan in CL finals, see Messi against Iran, see Maradona against England. The problem with Messi is that he has a history of being unable to step up and carry his international teams in big moments, where they are looking at him to finally close the deal. 

Messi is top 5 all time, but I can't give him #1 just like I can't give Lebron James #1 in the NBA either - because both have a history of being unable to close in the biggest moments and stages of the game. 



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contestgamer said:
Goatseye said:

Scoring penalty kicks is not a science, Vidal missed a penalty although he played superbly well during 120mn. He had Argentina's attack flowing during the game. Soccer is more than scoring goals.

Vidal doesnt matter, he's not even in the same league as Messi. To be the greatest you need to be a closer and show up on the biggest stages. Messi as the greatest in the world, the greatest on his team and some would argue the greatest of all time has a responsibility to close the deal. He failed. Pnalty kicks arent luck, if they were everyone would make and miss them at the same rate. They're equal part skill and ice cold veins. Messi is missing the latter and him quitting like he did proves that. Messi has a history of choking penalties away, just see chelsea in the finals. You cant make a claim to be the greatest of all time if you are unable to close the deal, again and again and again. In the NBA lergacies are made in the 4th quarter and what you do to close the game out. You need to close that deal in soccer too and it comes down to scoring a goal. If you're a forward and the game hinges on one goal difference, your job is to close that deal by scoring that goal. Not defer to someone else and hope they score it. You take it in to your own hands. See Zidan in CL finals, see Messi against Iran, see Maradona against England. The problem with Messi is that he has a history of being unable to step up and carry his international teams in big moments, where they are looking at him to finally close the deal. 

Messi is top 5 all time, but I can't give him #1 just like I can't give Lebron James #1 in the NBA either - because both have a history of being unable to close in the biggest moments and stages of the game. 

I agree completely with your assessments here.  To be the best in the world at what you do means finding a way to overcome and get the goal, shot, block, save, whatever you need in order to pull your team ahead.  It certainly doesn't mean choking it away multiple times.

Point of curiousity, did Lebron's performance in the most recent finals change his position in your top 10 at all?



REDZONE said:
torok said:

While I agree that Pelé had a better team, he won 3 damn world cups, with the 58/62 team and with a new one in 1970. Maradona's team was weaker than Messi's Argentina. Right now they have one of the best national teams in the world and cannot accomplish anything with it.

Even if he is a genius, Messi always underdelivered in the national team. He never had a decent sequence of good matches. It's always predictable, easy to be nulified by the opposite team's defense.

Football is a collective sport, but people forget that top players like Messi, C Ronald, Neymar and such are feared. The other team normally will use 2 dedicated players to defend against them and the rest of the defense is really handicaped.

As I said earlier, he will never be an all-time great until he wons the World Cup. Even then, he isn't a Pelé (his achievements are dwarfed by this guy) or Maradona (same play style, but El Pibe de Oro was one level above) and never will be.

And yes mind was made up he will never be the greatest with no world cups,which is the pinnacle of football.It's funny how some people say Pele never left Brazil(he was not allowed to,he is a national treasure)yet everything Messi did was in one league with one team.

And that Pele winning 3 freaking world cups from 4 (Brazil hadn't a single cup before Pele), doesn't count because Brazil had a great team but somehow all of Messi achievements playing by the strongest club of the world counts for him to be the best ever.

He quitting from Argentina last night was pathetic, he will really never match Maradona and ffs Pele should not even be in the imaginary realm of this discussion, the guy can't even accept losing and will rather let his country down than to try again.



BraLoD said:
REDZONE said:

And yes mind was made up he will never be the greatest with no world cups,which is the pinnacle of football.It's funny how some people say Pele never left Brazil(he was not allowed to,he is a national treasure)yet everything Messi did was in one league with one team.

And that Pele winning 3 freaking world cups from 4 (Brazil hadn't a single cup before Pele), doesn't count because Brazil had a great team but somehow all of Messi achievements playing by the strongest club of the world counts for him to be the best ever.

He quitting from Argentina last night was pathetic, he will really never match Maradona and ffs Pele should not even be in the imaginary realm of this discussion, the guy can't even accept losing and will rather let his country down than to try again.

You can only play for a country that understands you and don't rip you apart for every little thing that happens in national team.

Argentina doesn't have a coach, a system and a defense. Ronaldo does half of what Messi does for his country but you won't find ONE newspaper, criticizing him. 

Messi has more goals than Maradona, more assists, plays in more positions and has more trophies as an individual player. This discussion is shielded on the work of a team to nominate one individual as the best there is.