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Forums - Sports Discussion - Why does Messi needs to win a major tournament in order to be compared to Pele and Maradona?

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Neodegenerate on 27 June 2016
contestgamer said:
Goatseye said:

Scoring penalty kicks is not a science, Vidal missed a penalty although he played superbly well during 120mn. He had Argentina's attack flowing during the game. Soccer is more than scoring goals.

Vidal doesnt matter, he's not even in the same league as Messi. To be the greatest you need to be a closer and show up on the biggest stages. Messi as the greatest in the world, the greatest on his team and some would argue the greatest of all time has a responsibility to close the deal. He failed. Pnalty kicks arent luck, if they were everyone would make and miss them at the same rate. They're equal part skill and ice cold veins. Messi is missing the latter and him quitting like he did proves that. Messi has a history of choking penalties away, just see chelsea in the finals. You cant make a claim to be the greatest of all time if you are unable to close the deal, again and again and again. In the NBA lergacies are made in the 4th quarter and what you do to close the game out. You need to close that deal in soccer too and it comes down to scoring a goal. If you're a forward and the game hinges on one goal difference, your job is to close that deal by scoring that goal. Not defer to someone else and hope they score it. You take it in to your own hands. See Zidan in CL finals, see Messi against Iran, see Maradona against England. The problem with Messi is that he has a history of being unable to step up and carry his international teams in big moments, where they are looking at him to finally close the deal. 

Messi is top 5 all time, but I can't give him #1 just like I can't give Lebron James #1 in the NBA either - because both have a history of being unable to close in the biggest moments and stages of the game. 

I agree completely with your assessments here.  To be the best in the world at what you do means finding a way to overcome and get the goal, shot, block, save, whatever you need in order to pull your team ahead.  It certainly doesn't mean choking it away multiple times.

Point of curiousity, did Lebron's performance in the most recent finals change his position in your top 10 at all?



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Goatseye on 27 June 2016
BraLoD said:
REDZONE said:

And yes mind was made up he will never be the greatest with no world cups,which is the pinnacle of football.It's funny how some people say Pele never left Brazil(he was not allowed to,he is a national treasure)yet everything Messi did was in one league with one team.

And that Pele winning 3 freaking world cups from 4 (Brazil hadn't a single cup before Pele), doesn't count because Brazil had a great team but somehow all of Messi achievements playing by the strongest club of the world counts for him to be the best ever.

He quitting from Argentina last night was pathetic, he will really never match Maradona and ffs Pele should not even be in the imaginary realm of this discussion, the guy can't even accept losing and will rather let his country down than to try again.

You can only play for a country that understands you and don't rip you apart for every little thing that happens in national team.

Argentina doesn't have a coach, a system and a defense. Ronaldo does half of what Messi does for his country but you won't find ONE newspaper, criticizing him. 

Messi has more goals than Maradona, more assists, plays in more positions and has more trophies as an individual player. This discussion is shielded on the work of a team to nominate one individual as the best there is. 



Goatseye on 27 June 2016
BraLoD said:
Goatseye said:

You can only play for a country that understands you and don't rip you apart for every little thing that happens in national team.

Argentina doesn't have a coach, a system and a defense. Ronaldo does half of what Messi does for his country but you won't find ONE newspaper, criticizing him. 

Messi has more goals than Maradona, more assists, plays in more positions and has more trophies as an individual player. This discussion is shielded on the work of a team to nominate one individual as the best there is. 

Is this own mental state that "all fall in me" he has that keeps making him fail at the finals by Argentina.
He was the one to lose that penalty right in the beginning, and he is way better than that, but mind is a big part of a player, and he keeps showing he doesn't have a suited one to play for his own country.

While Pele was leading Brazil as a teenager to win it's first and second, and later third world cups, as well as leading Santos to win everything in the strong brazillian league just as well (brazillian league may be weak this days, but is still by far the most difficult to get, as we don't have 2 or 3 strong teams always winning it, like in Spain, while here we have around 10 teams always with real chances and similarly leveled teams).

Messi will really never reach Pele, and Maradona was still a more decisive player for Argentina.

Who leads Argentina attacks? It's Messi who else? This tournament he finished with 5 goals and 4 assists, the most productive player in the tournament.

Brazilian league is weak these days because the football has evolved but Brazilians are still in the 90's tactically. 

Messi is already up there with Pele, he worked by himself for the over 500 goals in competition games and moments of pure genius. As a 10, a 9 and a 7, no one in modern football has marked the game like he did.



contestgamer on 27 June 2016
Goatseye said:
BraLoD said:

And that Pele winning 3 freaking world cups from 4 (Brazil hadn't a single cup before Pele), doesn't count because Brazil had a great team but somehow all of Messi achievements playing by the strongest club of the world counts for him to be the best ever.

He quitting from Argentina last night was pathetic, he will really never match Maradona and ffs Pele should not even be in the imaginary realm of this discussion, the guy can't even accept losing and will rather let his country down than to try again.

You can only play for a country that understands you and don't rip you apart for every little thing that happens in national team.

Argentina doesn't have a coach, a system and a defense. Ronaldo does half of what Messi does for his country but you won't find ONE newspaper, criticizing him. 

Messi has more goals than Maradona, more assists, plays in more positions and has more trophies as an individual player. This discussion is shielded on the work of a team to nominate one individual as the best there is. 

Ronaldo dragged a garbage team to the semi's of a Euro, a much tougher competition than copa. Ronaldo has done pretty well internationally, although he could do more. But he hasn't announced that he's going to retire because he's so mentally fragile that he can't take the criticism and heat and would rather give up than fail again. That is pathetic. Can you ever imagine Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan doing that?I mean holy crap that's weak and you can't deny it. Out of hundreds of players across dozens of international teams, it's Messi that makes headlines for an unprecedented quittal on his national team. Come on man, this is right up there with Lebrons "decision" as one of the most pathetic moments in sports history.

Messi can rack up all the numbers he wants in meaningless games. Ultimately you play for trophies - that's the measure of a player, not how many goals he scored against garbage teams. That one Maradona goal against England? It'll be remembered by more people than 400 of Messi's goals because of the stage, style and competiton it was scored in.

And he knows it - I guarantee you that Messi would trade in 300 of his goals for just one in the last WC finals. Messi has proven himself at club level, with an all time stacked team built around him. 

Although I rank Messi above Ronaldo all time, I have to admit that if I was building a team from scratch I'd pick Ronaldo before Messi - because he has more individual weapons to effect any given game against any given team and he won't quit on me after a finals loss. Messi is the greatest system player of all time, but he is lacking the intangibles to be the greatest inidvidual player. He's mentally weak.



contestgamer on 27 June 2016
Neodegenerate said:
contestgamer said:

Vidal doesnt matter, he's not even in the same league as Messi. To be the greatest you need to be a closer and show up on the biggest stages. Messi as the greatest in the world, the greatest on his team and some would argue the greatest of all time has a responsibility to close the deal. He failed. Pnalty kicks arent luck, if they were everyone would make and miss them at the same rate. They're equal part skill and ice cold veins. Messi is missing the latter and him quitting like he did proves that. Messi has a history of choking penalties away, just see chelsea in the finals. You cant make a claim to be the greatest of all time if you are unable to close the deal, again and again and again. In the NBA lergacies are made in the 4th quarter and what you do to close the game out. You need to close that deal in soccer too and it comes down to scoring a goal. If you're a forward and the game hinges on one goal difference, your job is to close that deal by scoring that goal. Not defer to someone else and hope they score it. You take it in to your own hands. See Zidan in CL finals, see Messi against Iran, see Maradona against England. The problem with Messi is that he has a history of being unable to step up and carry his international teams in big moments, where they are looking at him to finally close the deal. 

Messi is top 5 all time, but I can't give him #1 just like I can't give Lebron James #1 in the NBA either - because both have a history of being unable to close in the biggest moments and stages of the game. 

I agree completely with your assessments here.  To be the best in the world at what you do means finding a way to overcome and get the goal, shot, block, save, whatever you need in order to pull your team ahead.  It certainly doesn't mean choking it away multiple times.

Point of curiousity, did Lebron's performance in the most recent finals change his position in your top 10 at all?

 

All time career greatness wise yeah, it moved him in to my top 5, not sure exactly where but probably ahead of Bird at #4. His resume is simply too strong now. I'd take Bird in close the deal situations every day of the week, but for the other 3 and a half quarters I'll take Lebron. If I'm going in to a finals series though, just 7 games for the trophy, I'm taking Shaq, Kobe, Bird, and maybe Hakeem ahead of him. I don't trust Lebron the way I trust those guys in close out situations, just the way I don't trust Messi. But his overall career greatness is just too much for me to ignore. Lebron was great in these finals, but to be honest Curry's historically epic choke job did a lot of the work for him.

 

PS: I dont know where I rank Wilt and Russel so I dont rank them - they have the titles, but I've watched them play (not a lot, just a few games which are available online) and honestly I think they'd get railroaded in todays league. That's the way I feel about Pele too based on full games I've watched of him, which is why I rank him below Maradona as well. Not their fault, they destroyed everyone they faced but the competition just wasnt that impresive and that factors in for me too.



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Goatseye on 27 June 2016
contestgamer said:
Goatseye said:

You can only play for a country that understands you and don't rip you apart for every little thing that happens in national team.

Argentina doesn't have a coach, a system and a defense. Ronaldo does half of what Messi does for his country but you won't find ONE newspaper, criticizing him. 

Messi has more goals than Maradona, more assists, plays in more positions and has more trophies as an individual player. This discussion is shielded on the work of a team to nominate one individual as the best there is. 

Ronaldo dragged a garbage team to the semi's of a Euro, a much tougher competition than copa. Ronaldo has done pretty well internationally, although he could do more. But he hasn't announced that he's going to retire because he's so mentally fragile that he can't take the criticism and heat and wuld rather give up than fail again. That is pathetic. Can you ever imagine Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan doing that? I mean holy crap that's weak and you can't deny it. Out of hundreds of players across dozens of international teams, it's Messi that makes headlines for an unprecedented quittal on his national team. Come on man, that's pathetic, this is right up there with Lebrons "decision" as one of the most pathetic moments in sports history.

Messi can rack up all the numbers he wants in meaningless games. Ultimately you play for trophies - that's the measure of a player, not how many goals he scored against garbage teams. That one Maradona goal against England? It'll be remembered by more people than 400 of Messi's goals because of the stage, style and competiton it was scored in.

And he knows it - I guarantee you that Messi would trade in 300 of his goals for just one in the last WC finals. Messi has proven himself at club level, with an all time stacked team  built around him. He can't get it done otherwise. 

Although I rank Messi above Ronaldo all time, I have to admit that if I was building a team from scratch I'd pick Ronaldo before Messi - because he has more individual weapons to effect any given game against any given team and he won't quit on me after a finals loss. Messi is the greatest system player of all time, but he is lacking the intangibles to be the greatest inidvidual player.

Ronaldo dragged a garbage team in Euro 12? LOL, that team had Mouthinho and Raul Meireles in form, so was Nani. Ronaldo never dragged Portugal because he's not that type of player. Goals are not the beginning and end of everything, Spain had the most trouble playing against Portugal because its midfield and defense was top quality. Don't make up stuff, you don't recognise Portuguese players say so.

You can will all the team trophies you want but if you don't have numbers (assists, goals) you  don't go anywhere.

Barcelona was not built round Messi, that style of play was taught by Cruyff to Barcelona more than 20 years ago.

What weapons does Ronaldo have over Messi? Physical abilities? Because Messi  would embarrass him if you would compare technical abilities, tactical awareness and attitude.

Messi's decision to quit national team is more off the field than anything. Argentinian press never recognized him as one of their own. Portuguese press was attacking French press the last couple of days because the French said that Ronaldo and Portugal are not that impressive. Which is true but Portuguese defends Ronaldo when he doesn't even play 1/4 of what he plays in Real Madrid. 

As individual player no ones touches Messi



Goatseye on 27 June 2016
BraLoD said:
Goatseye said:

As individual player no ones touches Messi

You should look for Ronaldinho Gaucho moments if you want to see some of the highest quality football ever played.
At his peak he was the most untouchable player football has seem.

Then show me Ronaldinho's long range pass capabilities and goal scoring ability.



contestgamer on 27 June 2016

That clutch gene of Messi:

2007 Copa America

07/15/2007 Argentina 0x3 Brazil . Messi: goals: 0 Assists: 0

2014 World Cup

07/13/2014 Argentina 0 x 1 Germany Messi goals: 0 Assists: 0

2015 Copa America

7/4/2015 Chile 0 (4) x 0 (1) Argentina Messi goals: 0 Assists: 0

2016 Copa America Centenário

06/26/2016 – Chile 0 (4) x 0 (2) Argentina Messi goals: 0 Assists: 0



Goatseye on 27 June 2016
contestgamer said:
That clutch gene of Messi:

2007 Copa America

07/15/2007 Argentina 0x3 Brazil . Messi: goals: 0 Assists: 0

2014 World Cup

07/13/2014 Argentina 0 x 1 Germany Messi goals: 0 Assists: 0

2015 Copa America

7/4/2015 Chile 0 (4) x 0 (1) Argentina Messi goals: 0 Assists: 0

2016 Copa America Centenário

06/26/2016 – Chile 0 (4) x 0 (2) Argentina Messi goals: 0 Assists: 0

How did they get to finals? They just teleported themselves there? The other games don't matter?

Argentina is not Messi, it takes more than one player to make a team.



contestgamer on 27 June 2016
Goatseye said:
contestgamer said:
That clutch gene of Messi:

2007 Copa America

07/15/2007 Argentina 0x3 Brazil . Messi: goals: 0 Assists: 0

2014 World Cup

07/13/2014 Argentina 0 x 1 Germany Messi goals: 0 Assists: 0

2015 Copa America

7/4/2015 Chile 0 (4) x 0 (1) Argentina Messi goals: 0 Assists: 0

2016 Copa America Centenário

06/26/2016 – Chile 0 (4) x 0 (2) Argentina Messi goals: 0 Assists: 0

How did they get to finals? They just teleported themselves there? The other games don't matter?

Argentina is not Messi, it takes more than one player to make a team.

You cant be the GOAT and wet the bed every time it matters most. You need to be a closer. Messi is simply not. That's what keeps him from the top of that list - he wets the bed when it's time to deliver the trophy.