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Forums - Sports Discussion - Why does Messi needs to win a major tournament in order to be compared to Pele and Maradona?

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LurkerJ said:
Just proves how silly the logic is, if Argentina won the penalties, Messi would've somehow became a better player than he already is.

And why are you guys now saying the debate is just now settled? Your minds were made up before the finale anyway.

Glad he is retired, the Portuguese journalism were never as harsh with CR like the Argentinians are with Messi. They treat him with respect despite the lack of trophies. Now Messi can be among a team and a crowd that appreciate what he's done for them.

10 years a star, shining bright and still more to give, you can't really say that about any other player.

Yeah, not choking on the biggest stages of the world makes you better than choking.



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contestgamer said:
LurkerJ said:
Just proves how silly the logic is, if Argentina won the penalties, Messi would've somehow became a better player than he already is.

And why are you guys now saying the debate is just now settled? Your minds were made up before the finale anyway.

Glad he is retired, the Portuguese journalism were never as harsh with CR like the Argentinians are with Messi. They treat him with respect despite the lack of trophies. Now Messi can be among a team and a crowd that appreciate what he's done for them.

10 years a star, shining bright and still more to give, you can't really say that about any other player.

Yeah, not choking on the biggest stages of the world makes you better than choking.

What does it mean to choke exactly?



REDZONE said:

Spot on.People making excuses about this team not be great,hahaha.This team was hell of a lot more talented than the Maradona's world cup team.

And yes mind was made up he will never be the greatest with no world cups,which is the pinnacle of football.It's funny how some people say Pele never left Brazil(he was not allowed to,he is a national treasure)yet everything Messi did was in one league with one team.

I said it before I will say it again,he is a choker along with his teammates,third final running.Now he goes and quit,while his team is struggling to qualify for the world cup.Yup what a great.

He is a great player. One of the best. But it isn't on the top of the list. No world cups, can't be the greatest of all-time, specially because the guys considered for that position have one or more.

However, I recognize that Argentina suffers a similar (albeit in a waaaay lighter manner) problem than Brazil. Outdated teams with outdated tactics. They have historically a huge opposition against hiring foreign coachs (more in Brazil), but right now that's what they need.

I also don't think he is retired. Is more a bit of frustration and the heat of the loss. He will play the next cup.

LurkerJ said:
Just proves how silly the logic is, if Argentina won the penalties, Messi would've somehow became a better player than he already is.

And why are you guys now saying the debate is just now settled? Your minds were made up before the finale anyway.

Glad he is retired, the Portuguese journalism were never as harsh with CR like the Argentinians are with Messi. They treat him with respect despite the lack of trophies. Now Messi can be among a team and a crowd that appreciate what he's done for them.

10 years a star, shining bright and still more to give, you can't really say that about any other player.

I don't think that a Copa América would do much for him. He is questioned by lacking a World Cup on his résumé. That's it. Ronaldo also gets a free pass because Portugal has less tradition. Argentina won 2 WC and their team is one of the most respected worldwide. However, they don't do it since 1986. Messi was the next Maradona that was suposed to bring Argentina back to the top and he is falling way short of this. It's a superb team, a great generation leaded by the best player in the world and they simply can't win the cup.

As a brazilian, I can understand why the argentinian are so harsh with them. We won't get particularly happy with a Copa América. It's World Cup or nothing. We had the 1986 national team, regarded as the best ever, and a lot of those players were harshly questioned because they didn't won the cup, even if they were absolutely superb players.

Ronaldo lead a team that doesn't have this responsibility because they never won a WC. If he does, he will be a national hero, of course, but that isn't an obligation. He also has a way weaker team to work with so people.



Goatseye said:
contestgamer said:

Yeah, not choking on the biggest stages of the world makes you better than choking.

What does it mean to choke exactly?

 

Being the best player on the planet and failing to make a penalty kick when the finals depends on it is choking. Performing well below your usual levels in the biggest moments of the sport, when everyone is looking at you to deliver the goods -  such as in the international finals - is a form of choking.

You cant be the greatest of all time and under perform in the finals again and again and again. You certainly can't be so weak as to miss a penalty kick to seal the deal and then "retire" (quit) to your country because you dont believe in yourself enough to get it done next time. I can guarantee that Maradona would not have quit on his country had he lost a finals on a penalty kick he botched. Messi is not as mentally strong as he is gifted. Compare him to Michael Jordan and the difference in intangibles, killer instinct and ruthless competitiveness are clear. Messi is gifted, but he is simply not a closer and not a killer out on that field.



REDZONE said:
Goatseye said:

Choking is the opposite of what happened in the field. There were various opportunities created for goal by Argentina, sometimes you need a little luck and Bravo on an average day.

This is pure excuses,choking is exactly what they did today again,third final straight.

They 100% choked, again. Di Maria is a case ot be studied, he gets injuried on 100% the finals he plays. Higuaín can't score on a final if his life depended on it and Messi fails on every decisive moment. I think this Argentina x Chile match proves why Messi needs to win an intenational tourney to be put up there with the best ever, if he doesn't ppl will always remember him as the dude who lost 4 finals for Argentina one of witch he kicked a penaty on the 3rd ring of the stands.



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contestgamer said:
Goatseye said:

What does it mean to choke exactly?

 

Being the best player on the planet and failing to make a penalty kick when the finals depends on it is choking. Performing well below your usual levels in the biggest moments of the sport, when everyone is looking at you to deliver the goods -  such as in the international finals - is a form of choking.

You cant be the greatest of all time and under perform in the finals again and again and again. You certainly can't be so weak as to miss a penalty kick to seal the deal and then "retire" (quit) to your country because you dont believe in yourself enough to get it done next time. I can guarantee that Maradona would not have quit on his country had he lost a finals on a penalty kick he botched. Messi is not as mentally strong as he is gifted. Compare him to Michael Jordan and the difference in intangibles, killer instinct and ruthless competitiveness are clear. Messi is gifted, but he is simply not a closer and not a killer out on that field.

Scoring penalty kicks is not a science, Vidal missed a penalty although he played superbly well during 120mn. He had Argentina's attack flowing during the game. Soccer is more than scoring goals.



Goatseye said:
contestgamer said:

Yeah, not choking on the biggest stages of the world makes you better than choking.

What does it mean to choke exactly? the definition of "choke" in football terms,

The definition of "choke" in football terms is failing to come to the fore in three consecutive finals running.You keep saying Chile is a way better "team" haha.Have you forgotten Argentina had beaten them early in the competition when,wait for it..............it didn't matter.And they're so much better than Argentina that it had to be settled on penalties.Point is,they were good enough to reach three finals but just couldn't handle the pressure.



REDZONE said:
Goatseye said:

What does it mean to choke exactly? the definition of "choke" in football terms,

The definition of "choke" in football terms is failing to come to the fore in three consecutive finals running.You keep saying Chile is a way better "team" haha.Have you forgotten Argentina had beaten them early in the competition when,wait for it..............it didn't matter.And they're so much better than Argentina that it had to be settled on penalties.Point is,they were good enough to reach three finals but just couldn't handle the pressure.

Argentina had many opportunities to win the game. The ball didn't go in because they're not playing against dolls.

I don't think you know the difference between a team and a bunch of players. In Chile everyone attacks and everyone defends; the solidarity of players there is more common than in Argentina where tactics are confusing and somewhat outdated.



Goatseye said:
contestgamer said:

 

Being the best player on the planet and failing to make a penalty kick when the finals depends on it is choking. Performing well below your usual levels in the biggest moments of the sport, when everyone is looking at you to deliver the goods -  such as in the international finals - is a form of choking.

You cant be the greatest of all time and under perform in the finals again and again and again. You certainly can't be so weak as to miss a penalty kick to seal the deal and then "retire" (quit) to your country because you dont believe in yourself enough to get it done next time. I can guarantee that Maradona would not have quit on his country had he lost a finals on a penalty kick he botched. Messi is not as mentally strong as he is gifted. Compare him to Michael Jordan and the difference in intangibles, killer instinct and ruthless competitiveness are clear. Messi is gifted, but he is simply not a closer and not a killer out on that field.

Scoring penalty kicks is not a science, Vidal missed a penalty although he played superbly well during 120mn. He had Argentina's attack flowing during the game. Soccer is more than scoring goals.

Vidal doesnt matter, he's not even in the same league as Messi. To be the greatest you need to be a closer and show up on the biggest stages. Messi as the greatest in the world, the greatest on his team and some would argue the greatest of all time has a responsibility to close the deal. He failed. Pnalty kicks arent luck, if they were everyone would make and miss them at the same rate. They're equal part skill and ice cold veins. Messi is missing the latter and him quitting like he did proves that. Messi has a history of choking penalties away, just see chelsea in the finals. You cant make a claim to be the greatest of all time if you are unable to close the deal, again and again and again. In the NBA lergacies are made in the 4th quarter and what you do to close the game out. You need to close that deal in soccer too and it comes down to scoring a goal. If you're a forward and the game hinges on one goal difference, your job is to close that deal by scoring that goal. Not defer to someone else and hope they score it. You take it in to your own hands. See Zidan in CL finals, see Messi against Iran, see Maradona against England. The problem with Messi is that he has a history of being unable to step up and carry his international teams in big moments, where they are looking at him to finally close the deal. 

Messi is top 5 all time, but I can't give him #1 just like I can't give Lebron James #1 in the NBA either - because both have a history of being unable to close in the biggest moments and stages of the game. 



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