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Forums - Nintendo - Just how big will Star Fox for Wii U be?

spemanig said:
JEMC said:

I'm afraid you'll be very disappointed, spemanig.

Even the Gamecube had better bigger space fight games like Rogue Leader, so it's not a question about how powerful the console is but a matter of what do Nintendo wants to do with it. And taking into consideration that Nintendo only had a prototype at last year's E3, that they were still looking for a team to make the game, and that it will be released this year before Zelda, all signs point to a small scale Star Fox game, not an AAA game.

Expect a new Star Fox 64 with better graphics and a 40 $/€ price point, just like Captain Toad.


I'm not the only person who will be disappointed.

Well, you are the one who made the thread and shared his expectations .

But if that makes you happy, then I'll say that anyone with high expectations will be disappointed.



Please excuse my bad English.

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Mr Khan said:

Nintendo budges not for bitching fans.

Or for anyone else for that matter. They largely do what they want.


...Yes, they do. Twilight Princess exists solely because of bitching fans. It was originally Wind Waker 2.



Spemanig, how would a procedural generated Star Fox work gameplay-wise, according to your imagination? You say it is just the setting, but obviously there is a huge difference between a world created by algorithms and a hand-crafted world with artificial level design (for gameplay purposes.) How can it still be an arcade shooter with a procedural generated world? Obviously there has to be some level of artificial world building, which would be impossible if one would like a world the scale of No Man's Sky with the level design of Star Fox in all areas. 



sc94597 said:
JustBeingReal said:
The whole procedural generation thing can actually be used to create a simulated world, solar system or universe and then tweaks could be made by development teams to add features or gameplay. The overall algorithm used to make such simulated environments can be implemented differently by bigger coding teams, it doesn't have to be handled exactly like an Indie studio, with one or two people working on that math but rather multiple times that number of coders.

Sure, but the job of the developer would be to find generated worlds that fit with what they want to present in the game. It is almost like if you chose 60 random Skyrim characters using the character customization and had to choose six character presets which looked good. You would rather just create the characters yourself rather than relying on the generator and choosing what is best. Sure, you can set some initial conditions, like they did in No Man's Sky (for planet size and distance), but those resources could be used elsewhere. Space simulators benefit from these large worlds because they allow you to choose what you want to do and where to go. Star Fox, by the nature of its genre, is a linear game at its core. And that is why the OP can't separate genre from the setting. The setting informs and responds to gameplay. 

In the case of creating a universe or galaxy maybe, but not if developers procedurally generate just a world that they need.

Procedural generation isn't limited to just creating some expansive universe, it can be used however you like. The generator will work however you code it. Another way to make a game is by doing what Ninja Theory are, create a toolchest of assets, for example like a brick, you can then multiply for the amount of bricks you need, but the engine can actually randomize geometry and pixels to make each brick look different, each brick will have the same art style and level of detail as the next one, but they'll look different from each other.

The same can happen with all of the assets inside of a game world, essentially then the world is a stage for you to create great gameplay experiences within, for a game like Starfox Nintendo can create the solar system in a similar way, only they may have a studio 10X the size of the Hellblade team.

Ninja Theory were using a team of like 13 people, making a game with a similar level of scope as Heavenly Sword, God of War or the like, only with a more open environment for players to explore.

 

Developing in this way studios can use their resources more wisely and make a game much more cost effective than previous generations, with way more gameplay. Nintendo could have used this kind of an approach to take Starfox from a single path of on rails gameplay through a few levels, to having a load more paths per level, on all levels, add in more dogfighting sections and it becomes a game with the same kind of arcade style player, only vastly expanded compared to past Starfox titles.



All I know is this. There hasn't been a GOOD (see: REAL) Star Fox game since SF64, which is one of the best games, let alone shooters, I've ever played. What fans of the series deserve (and I'd have to imagine what most of them want), is another experience LIKE THAT.

What we've gotten since? A late entry Rare project that Nintendo made Rare slap a coat of "Star Fox" paint on, called "Dinosaur Planet". It was an okay game, but it was not in any way a "Star Fox" game.

Then, we got a game made by Namco (bad idea), that the early videos that only mostly showed footage of the FIRST TWO LEVELS of the game, actually fooled me into thinking it was the SF64 sequel I'd been waiting for. Except "Star Fox: Assault" was nothing of the kind. First two levels? Fantastic. Rest of the game? A tedious, badly slapped together mess, mostly consisting of SUPER shitty "Get of the Arwing and run around" missions, that not only played like shit, but were tedious and repetitive (see: uninteresting) to boot. That game is still to this day my single biggest "gamer let down" as far as games I was hyped for, that turned out to be absolute abortions.

Then there was "Star Fox: Command", which I don't hate, but it just didn't play well. They tried to slap strategy elements into an arcade style shooter, and then on top of that forced the player to control the Arwing with the DS touch screen. It didn't work well. It was a very "meh" game.

So, as a long-time Star Fox fan, I'm still waiting, and have BEEN waiting, for a new (GOOD), actual SF64 style game, for the better part of two decades. Now, admittedly, having seen really nothing about this new game, I can't say that there isn't at least a small chance that it MIGHT be the kind of SF game I've been waiting forever for. However, history is not on their side, and the fact that Miyamoto seems to think he needs to be directly involved, and slap motion controls no one asked for or needed into the game, does not bode well. Mind you, I love Miyamoto, he has made more great games than arguably any other designer in gaming history. However, slapping YET another stupid gameplay gimmick into Star Fox? Not great. And the fact that he implied that those "Big Robot" and "Explody Robot Maze" mini-game concepts he once showed off, were "related to his Star Fox project", also doesn't bode well.

Trust me. I want a REAL, GOOD Star Fox game as much as anyone else does. No gimmicks, no bullshit, no "trying to make it more like another genre/franchise". Just STAR FOX. But I'm not about to hold my breath waiting to see if this game is good, because chances are, it very well could be another pile of shit. Now IF the rumor that the motion controls are totally optional, and you can choose to use 100% traditional controls as well, then that's a plus. That would certainly help. But that DOESN'T mean the game won't still otherwise contain other bullshit elements that will keep it from being an actual, good SF experience. I shall "wait and see" just like everyone else. But it's not gonna be a day one purchase for me, at all. Not unless I see proof positive that it's actually going to be the Star Fox game that deserves to be made.



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It'll sell slower than Tropical Freeze



JustBeingReal said:

In the case of creating a universe or galaxy maybe, but not if developers procedurally generate just a world that they need.

Procedural generation isn't limited to just creating some expansive universe, it can be used however you like. The generator will work however you code it. Another way to make a game is by doing what Ninja Theory are, create a toolchest of assets, for example like a brick, you can then multiply for the amount of bricks you need, but the engine can actually randomize geometry and pixels to make each brick look different, each brick will have the same art style and level of detail as the next one, but they'll look different from each other.

The same can happen with all of the assets inside of a game world, essentially then the world is a stage for you to create great gameplay experiences within, for a game like Starfox Nintendo can create the solar system in a similar way, only they may have a studio 10X the size of the Hellblade team.

Ninja Theory were using a team of like 13 people, making a game with a similar level of scope as Heavenly Sword, God of War or the like, only with a more open environment for players to explore.

 

Developing in this way studios can use their resources more wisely and make a game much more cost effective than previous generations, with way more gameplay. Nintendo could have used this kind of an approach to take Starfox from a single path of on rails gameplay through a few levels, to having a load more paths per level, on all levels, add in more dogfighting sections and it becomes a game with the same kind of arcade style player, only vastly expanded compared to past Starfox titles.

Sure, but the assumptions in this thread were that there would be more than one planet in the scope of a game like No Man's Sky, Elite: Dangerous, and Star Citizen. I know how a generator works, use them often enough in computational physics. It depends greatly on which initial conditions and constants you choose. What you are describing is the equivalent of choosing a Skyrim preset and then modifying it to your liking. That works for one character, but let's say you know exactly how you want 60 characters to look. At that point you might as well just design the characters how you want them to look, and of course that would take just as much time and resources, while limiting your style to the generator's combinations. Hence, the issue with creating a universe or planet-sized game world for a game which depends on artificial assets and level design (like Starfox.) 



i really dont care what they do with it, only star fox i was not impressed with was adventures, which i realize is basically starfox zelda.



JEMC said:

I'm afraid you'll be very disappointed, spemanig.

Even the Gamecube had better bigger space fight games like Rogue Leader, so it's not a question about how powerful the console is but a matter of what do Nintendo wants to do with it. And taking into consideration that Nintendo only had a prototype at last year's E3, that they were still looking for a team to make the game, and that it will be released this year before Zelda, all signs point to a small scale Star Fox game, not an AAA game.

Expect a new Star Fox 64 with better graphics and a 40 $/€ price point, just like Captain Toad.

This. A year is more than enough to polish the hell out of the game but I don't expect it to be some huge, epic undertaking.  Having said that Super Mario 3D World was 10 months from announcement to release and that game definitely wasn't lacking content.



I find your idea that "it is 2015, so therefore starfox should be a giant open behemoth" ridiculous and a close minded way to look at game design. The additional power of the Wii U can be used to improve enemy AI and improve the scale of armada battles to appeal to modern gamers. Being open isn't a standard its a design choice and does not define what a game in this day and age should be. Could Starfox be what you envisioned? Yes. Does it have to be? No.