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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Sony in talks with MS about Blu-Ray for 360...

gebx on 06 March 2008

Warning!!!! LOGIC AHEAD!!! STEER YOUR EYES AWAY FROM HAPPYSQUIRREL'S POST!!!

 

 

HappySqurriel said:

http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/09/01/137211

Current manufacturing lines are stretched to the max - Bob Hurley, with Sony DADC, says that Sony is churning out 200,000 UMDs a day and future capacity is expected to be 500,000 per day. 'Tiger Woods Golf is my personal favorite [game], but video has been surprisingly good to us,' says Hurley. In a few years Sony expect videos to be more than 60 percent of all UMD sales, with an expected 130 million UMDs being sold in 2008

Now, I'm not trying to do a direct comparison between UMD and Blu-Ray but I thought that this was a good way to demonstrate a very obvious point ...

Blu-Ray and HD-DVD stand alone player sales have been pretty unimpressive since both formats were released, and HD-Movie player and movie sales did not approach a level that hinted that it would one day become a sustainable movie format until the PS3 was released with a Blu-Ray player inside of it. I don't want to get into an argument on what percentage of people bought a PS3 as a games only device, or what percentage bought it as a Blu-Ray player, because I believe that PS3 owners bought a PS3 to use it as both; of PS3 owners I know, most bought it because the PS3 was supposed to become a popular gaming maching, Blu-Ray was supposed to become the popular movie format, and they really could use a High Definition media center extender.

One thing that has yet to be demonstrated is that Blu-Ray has much appeal outside of the techie early adopter crowd, in particular the techie early adopter crowd who has an interest in High-Definition television and in videogames. This is important because it determines how popular Blu-Ray will be as players hit $100 knowing they will be in direct competition with $25 upconverting DVD players that have a massive movie library and you can pick up DVDs for $5 to $10; on top of this it begs the question of how much real value to the customer a Blu-Ray player would add to the XBox 360 being that it could not take advantage of the hardware in game, and they already have a High Definition movie format through downloads on XBox Live.


 



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Username2324 on 06 March 2008
kuraobi said:
@Username2324 :
You can't say that BluRay will replace DVD when the numbers show the BR at less than 2% market share. Lots of formats never became standard. Minidisc never became a standard. Neither did Laserdisc, VCD, WMA, AAC, MP3pro, SACD, DVD-Audio...
All of these had interesting features, some had nice retrocompatibility etc... but none of them never became standard.
When I see how hard it is to explain to someone what a BluRay is, and when I see how good DVD-upscalers can make really nice pictures, I'm really not sure at all that the BR will ultimately replace the DVD.
You raise a point, but one thing you forgot is WMA, AAC, MP3pro, DVD-Audio, none of those are solid formats, those are ways of encoding things, Blu-ray is a storage disc.

Now, maybe a DVD-Upscaler doesn't seem too bad compared to 720p, but when you consider you're getting a DVD-Upscaler and a HD movie machine, it sweetens it, and the difference between an Upscaled DVD and a Blu-ray in 720p is very noticeable and even more noticeable in 1080p. I repeat, Blu-ray will become the standard, you can go ahead and quote me on that.

 



Lone_Canis_Lupus on 06 March 2008
gebx said:
Username2324 said:
gebx said:
Username2324 said:
gebx said:
Hmm.. anyone else think this article is full of crap?

What are the advantages of having a Blu Ray add on for the 360??

Blu Ray isn't the dominant format, and won't be for a couple years (if ever), so why push Sony technology... on top of that, MS will have to pay Sony to do it?

And whats with the Blu Ray Elite comment?? Will developers have to create two different games/cd's for the 360? One for the Blu Ray drive and one for the regular drive?

PS3 kind of sort of loses an advantage over the 360.
Clearly you haven't read around, Blu-ray will be replacing DVD, there's no avoiding. HD downloads are not and will not be practical for many many years.
As with the HD DVD add-on, the Blu-ray add on would just be for movies, not for games. And if you didn't know, Blu-ray drives can play both BDs and DVDs so if they released a console with it built in (unlikely) it wouldn't cause any problems.


You're an idiot.... ok, lets take your comment one step at a time

"Clearly you haven't read around, "

Yeah, I'm really new to these forums... please point me towards the sales forum... thanks!

"Blu-ray will be replacing DVD, there's no avoiding. HD downloads are not and will not be practical for many many years."

Could you please share your crystal ball with the rest of the community?? That would be great! People always sound like ass's when they think they know exactly how things will prevail with no DATA/FACTS to back them up. We don't know if any of that will happen!

"And if you didn't know, Blu-ray drives can play both BDs and DVDs"

Xbox 360 drive and the PS3 Blu Ray drive spin at different speeds, 360 games are optimized for the DVD drive (that whole spiel about faster data needs to be on the inside of the disc and slower data on the outside)... the tech stuff is way beyond my head, but from my basic understanding is that the Blu Ray drive can't access the inside part fast enough (Oblivion being the example)... therefore any 360 game might have problems ranging from slow framerate to slow loading times to crashing on a Blu Ray drive.

Let me rephrase the first part. Clearly you haven't read around ELSEWHERE, this is a Video Game Sales site, not a Blu-ray, DVD format site. Well in 2 years when BD Players are $100 or less, and almost everyone has one, then you will know it has become the standard. You cannot provide facts for the future, but if you understood the market, you'd see Blu-ray will become the HD standard.

Let me ask you this, how come my PS3 can play DVD's? How come it can read anything off of any DVD? Because it plays DVDs! The spin speed doesnt matter, and like I said, if the 360 does indeed get a Blu-ray player, it will be an add-on, and also like I said, it'd be just like the HD DVD add-on where as it will not be used for games, but for movies.

There will never be a game released on the 360 on a Blu-ray Disc, there's no point in releasing a version on DVD and one on Blu-ray, you'd have to design two different games for one console, which is a waste of money.

So tell me, why am I an idiot?

 


That highlighted line is the biggest bull crap I've seen on these forums in a long time.

No one knows how any market will turn out, all we can make is educated guess' and I've never seen you say anything educated.

 

What do you mean this isn't a HD DVD vs Blu Ray forum?? Have you been around these forums lately? Everyday at least two new threads on Blu Ray are created.

And you don't know what you're talking about concerning the spin speeds.

 

Oh and I agree with you that they'll never be a Blu ray game released for the 360!! <-- NOT sarcasm.. really, I agree with you


 Look, HD-DVD is dead...what other HD format is there? Think for a minute. Only 20% of the population have HDTVs right now...but when they all get HDTVs, if they wanted it for HD in the first place...they're going to want HD stuff. Ok, if this is all too much for you to take in, breath in slowly and just remain calm. DVD isn't HD, it is only 720x480. You got that, right? So, if they want HD...what are they going to turn to? What's left of course. HD-DVD is dead, and all that is left as a physical format is Blu-ray, which does 1080p.

 As the HD format, Blu-ray will eventually dominate over DVD. Not any time soon, it might take a few years...but for entertainment, the market will move to Blu-ray. Though I still see DVD doing well for a while just like VHS did when DVD came around.

 Just because threads are created on Blu-ray doesn't mean this is a HD-DVD vs Blu-ray forum. It's a Video Game forum...that's what this site is for, VIDEO GAMES.

As for the spin speeds, that's for reading BLU-RAY discs. Reading an actual DVD will be the same speed as if you were reading a DVD. Like a hybrid drive...it will still have a laser capable of reading DVDs...it will have the same capable speeds. Just like your DVD player can read CDs at speeds you could read CDs on just CD players. Make sense?

 Of course they will never make a 360 game on Blu-ray...just like they never did with HD-DVD. There would be no point as the 360 is already stuck with DVD9. That would be like making an external Blu-ray drive for the PS2 and making a PS2 game on Blu-ray...there is just no sense in it.



PSN: Lone_Canis_Lupus

gebx on 06 March 2008
Username2324 said:

 
.

Let me rephrase the first part. Clearly you haven't read around ELSEWHERE, this is a Video Game Sales site, not a Blu-ray, DVD format site. Well in 2 years when BD Players are $100 or less, and almost everyone has one, then you will know it has become the standard. You cannot provide facts for the future, but if you understood the market, you'd see Blu-ray will become the HD standard.

Let me ask you this, how come my PS3 can play DVD's? How come it can read anything off of any DVD? Because it plays DVDs! The spin speed doesnt matter, and like I said, if the 360 does indeed get a Blu-ray player, it will be an add-on, and also like I said, it'd be just like the HD DVD add-on where as it will not be used for games, but for movies.

There will never be a game released on the 360 on a Blu-ray Disc, there's no point in releasing a version on DVD and one on Blu-ray, you'd have to design two different games for one console, which is a waste of money.

So tell me, why am I an idiot?

 


That highlighted line is the biggest bull crap I've seen on these forums in a long time.

No one knows how any market will turn out, all we can make is educated guess' and I've never seen you say anything educated.

 What do you mean this isn't a HD DVD vs Blu Ray forum?? Have you been around these forums lately? Everyday at least two new threads on Blu Ray are created.

And you don't know what you're talking about concerning the spin speeds.

 Oh and I agree with you that they'll never be a Blu ray game released for the 360!! <-- NOT sarcasm.. really, I agree with you


I'm sorry, I tried to be nice, I tried to explain. But you obviously aren't very intelligent. Did I ever say this was a HD DVD vs. Blu-ray forum, no, but it's not its a Video Game Sales Chart, while threads are posted on the subject, it's not what the site was created for.

And your right, no one knows how the market will turn out, but your ignorance makes me laugh. Like I said, the only thing to stop BD from becoming the standard are HD movie downloads, but America and many other nations simply do not have a internet network fast enough to support such large movie files in vast quantities, Youtube causes enough problems. Aside from that, people will not want to wait for their movies to download, and most people do not have storage capacities to support a large library. So please, stop trying to insult me, you're only showing everyone else how foolish you really are.

And I don't know what I'm talking about concering spin speeds? Ok buddy, get this through your head, drives do not spin at a constant speed, and the only way BD drives can play DVD's is because they can spin at that speed, if your dumb enough to believe the 360 has some super special DVD drive then you really need to rethink the way you view things.

And you should agree with me, it would be very stupid on the developers part to release a version of a game for the 360 on Blu-ray and DVD, one being the add-on blu-ray won't support games, and second being a very small portion of 360ers will have BD drives. 


* Insert Picard smaking head pic here

The Xbox 360 drive is x 12, the speed slows the further away from the middle the data is located. Programmers know this and will place data that needs to be accessed faster near the middle, and less important data that doesn't need quick access farthest from the middle.

Blu Ray drive reads at a constant speed, while it is faster then the 360 drive at the edge, its slower then the 360 near the middle.

 

Where's MikeB?? at least he knows his shit...



Proud Member of GAIBoWS (Gamers Against Irrational Bans of Weezy & Squilliam)

                   

Username2324 on 06 March 2008
gebx said:
Username2324 said:

 
.

Let me rephrase the first part. Clearly you haven't read around ELSEWHERE, this is a Video Game Sales site, not a Blu-ray, DVD format site. Well in 2 years when BD Players are $100 or less, and almost everyone has one, then you will know it has become the standard. You cannot provide facts for the future, but if you understood the market, you'd see Blu-ray will become the HD standard.

Let me ask you this, how come my PS3 can play DVD's? How come it can read anything off of any DVD? Because it plays DVDs! The spin speed doesnt matter, and like I said, if the 360 does indeed get a Blu-ray player, it will be an add-on, and also like I said, it'd be just like the HD DVD add-on where as it will not be used for games, but for movies.

There will never be a game released on the 360 on a Blu-ray Disc, there's no point in releasing a version on DVD and one on Blu-ray, you'd have to design two different games for one console, which is a waste of money.

So tell me, why am I an idiot?

 


That highlighted line is the biggest bull crap I've seen on these forums in a long time.

No one knows how any market will turn out, all we can make is educated guess' and I've never seen you say anything educated.

What do you mean this isn't a HD DVD vs Blu Ray forum?? Have you been around these forums lately? Everyday at least two new threads on Blu Ray are created.

And you don't know what you're talking about concerning the spin speeds.

Oh and I agree with you that they'll never be a Blu ray game released for the 360!! <-- NOT sarcasm.. really, I agree with you


I'm sorry, I tried to be nice, I tried to explain. But you obviously aren't very intelligent. Did I ever say this was a HD DVD vs. Blu-ray forum, no, but it's not its a Video Game Sales Chart, while threads are posted on the subject, it's not what the site was created for.

And your right, no one knows how the market will turn out, but your ignorance makes me laugh. Like I said, the only thing to stop BD from becoming the standard are HD movie downloads, but America and many other nations simply do not have a internet network fast enough to support such large movie files in vast quantities, Youtube causes enough problems. Aside from that, people will not want to wait for their movies to download, and most people do not have storage capacities to support a large library. So please, stop trying to insult me, you're only showing everyone else how foolish you really are.

And I don't know what I'm talking about concering spin speeds? Ok buddy, get this through your head, drives do not spin at a constant speed, and the only way BD drives can play DVD's is because they can spin at that speed, if your dumb enough to believe the 360 has some super special DVD drive then you really need to rethink the way you view things.

And you should agree with me, it would be very stupid on the developers part to release a version of a game for the 360 on Blu-ray and DVD, one being the add-on blu-ray won't support games, and second being a very small portion of 360ers will have BD drives.


* Insert Picard smaking head pic here

The Xbox 360 drive is x 12, the speed slows the further away from the middle the data is located. Programmers know this and will place data that needs to be accessed faster near the middle, and less important data that doesn't need quick access farthest from the middle.

Blu Ray drive reads at a constant speed, while it is faster then the 360 drive at the edge, its slower then the 360 near the middle.

 

Where's MikeB?? at least he knows his shit...

What I meant was the drive doesn't just rev up to XXXX RPM and stay there the entire time a disc is in, and as explained BD drives have the capability to spin at variable speeds, speeds for CD's, DVD's and Blu-ray discs, would you get your head out of your ass and actually think about what you are posting?

 



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gebx on 06 March 2008
Lone_Canis_Lupus said:
gebx said:
Username2324 said:
gebx said:
Username2324 said:
gebx said:
 
.


.



 Look, HD-DVD is dead...what other HD format is there? Think for a minute. Only 20% of the population have HDTVs right now...but when they all get HDTVs, if they wanted it for HD in the first place...they're going to want HD stuff. Ok, if this is all too much for you to take in, breath in slowly and just remain calm. DVD isn't HD, it is only 720x480. You got that, right? So, if they want HD...what are they going to turn to? What's left of course. HD-DVD is dead, and all that is left as a physical format is Blu-ray, which does 1080p.

 As the HD format, Blu-ray will eventually dominate over DVD. Not any time soon, it might take a few years...but for entertainment, the market will move to Blu-ray. Though I still see DVD doing well for a while just like VHS did when DVD came around.

 Just because threads are created on Blu-ray doesn't mean this is a HD-DVD vs Blu-ray forum. It's a Video Game forum...that's what this site is for, VIDEO GAMES.

As for the spin speeds, that's for reading BLU-RAY discs. Reading an actual DVD will be the same speed as if you were reading a DVD. Like a hybrid drive...it will still have a laser capable of reading DVDs...it will have the same capable speeds. Just like your DVD player can read CDs at speeds you could read CDs on just CD players. Make sense?

 Of course they will never make a 360 game on Blu-ray...just like they never did with HD-DVD. There would be no point as the 360 is already stuck with DVD9. That would be like making an external Blu-ray drive for the PS2 and making a PS2 game on Blu-ray...there is just no sense in it.


I've never said HD DVD was coming back (but I get your point), but as you mentioned, its going to take years, and we have no idea what technological leaps will happen in the next two years concerning drive space, IPTV, or  internet connections.

For example, how will the United States moving to an all digital cable TV distribution in Feb 2009 for cable television affect internet access?? (Hint: thats the same shit that can handles broadband internet)

Question about the Bluray hybrid comment - Can current Blu Ray drives read DVD's at a comparable DVDx12 speed?



Proud Member of GAIBoWS (Gamers Against Irrational Bans of Weezy & Squilliam)

                   

gebx on 06 March 2008
Username2324 said:
gebx said:
Username2324 said:

 
.

Let me rephrase the first part. Clearly you haven't read around ELSEWHERE, this is a Video Game Sales site, not a Blu-ray, DVD format site. Well in 2 years when BD Players are $100 or less, and almost everyone has one, then you will know it has become the standard. You cannot provide facts for the future, but if you understood the market, you'd see Blu-ray will become the HD standard.

Let me ask you this, how come my PS3 can play DVD's? How come it can read anything off of any DVD? Because it plays DVDs! The spin speed doesnt matter, and like I said, if the 360 does indeed get a Blu-ray player, it will be an add-on, and also like I said, it'd be just like the HD DVD add-on where as it will not be used for games, but for movies.

There will never be a game released on the 360 on a Blu-ray Disc, there's no point in releasing a version on DVD and one on Blu-ray, you'd have to design two different games for one console, which is a waste of money.

So tell me, why am I an idiot?

 


That highlighted line is the biggest bull crap I've seen on these forums in a long time.

No one knows how any market will turn out, all we can make is educated guess' and I've never seen you say anything educated.

What do you mean this isn't a HD DVD vs Blu Ray forum?? Have you been around these forums lately? Everyday at least two new threads on Blu Ray are created.

And you don't know what you're talking about concerning the spin speeds.

Oh and I agree with you that they'll never be a Blu ray game released for the 360!! <-- NOT sarcasm.. really, I agree with you


I'm sorry, I tried to be nice, I tried to explain. But you obviously aren't very intelligent. Did I ever say this was a HD DVD vs. Blu-ray forum, no, but it's not its a Video Game Sales Chart, while threads are posted on the subject, it's not what the site was created for.

And your right, no one knows how the market will turn out, but your ignorance makes me laugh. Like I said, the only thing to stop BD from becoming the standard are HD movie downloads, but America and many other nations simply do not have a internet network fast enough to support such large movie files in vast quantities, Youtube causes enough problems. Aside from that, people will not want to wait for their movies to download, and most people do not have storage capacities to support a large library. So please, stop trying to insult me, you're only showing everyone else how foolish you really are.

And I don't know what I'm talking about concering spin speeds? Ok buddy, get this through your head, drives do not spin at a constant speed, and the only way BD drives can play DVD's is because they can spin at that speed, if your dumb enough to believe the 360 has some super special DVD drive then you really need to rethink the way you view things.

And you should agree with me, it would be very stupid on the developers part to release a version of a game for the 360 on Blu-ray and DVD, one being the add-on blu-ray won't support games, and second being a very small portion of 360ers will have BD drives.


* Insert Picard smaking head pic here

The Xbox 360 drive is x 12, the speed slows the further away from the middle the data is located. Programmers know this and will place data that needs to be accessed faster near the middle, and less important data that doesn't need quick access farthest from the middle.

Blu Ray drive reads at a constant speed, while it is faster then the 360 drive at the edge, its slower then the 360 near the middle.

 

Where's MikeB?? at least he knows his shit...

What I meant was the drive doesn't just rev up to XXXX RPM and stay there the entire time a disc is in, and as explained BD drives have the capability to spin at variable speeds, speeds for CD's, DVD's and Blu-ray discs, would you get your head out of your ass and actually think about what you are posting?

 


What you meant and what you write seems to keep changing every post....



Proud Member of GAIBoWS (Gamers Against Irrational Bans of Weezy & Squilliam)

                   

Username2324 on 06 March 2008

You must know nothing about the format. It's not a "hybrid" all Blu-ray drives have a red laser in them to read DVD's. And yes, most spin at 12X, alot can spin faster than that.



Username2324 on 06 March 2008

You know what, I'm getting sick of your incompetence gebx. Here's a few things you need to know.
1. Blu-ray will become the standard, reasons stated in a previous post.
2. All Blu-ray drives can play DVD's with no problem at all.
3. No game will ever be released on Blu-ray for the 360 even if they did get a BD add-on.
4. Before getting into a debate next time, actually know what your talking about rather than making random guesses or quoting other people.

Any other questions? I'd be happy to answer, in the meantime take your stupidity elsewhere.



Lone_Canis_Lupus on 06 March 2008
gebx said:
Lone_Canis_Lupus said:
gebx said:
Username2324 said:
gebx said:
Username2324 said:
gebx said:
.


.



Look, HD-DVD is dead...what other HD format is there? Think for a minute. Only 20% of the population have HDTVs right now...but when they all get HDTVs, if they wanted it for HD in the first place...they're going to want HD stuff. Ok, if this is all too much for you to take in, breath in slowly and just remain calm. DVD isn't HD, it is only 720x480. You got that, right? So, if they want HD...what are they going to turn to? What's left of course. HD-DVD is dead, and all that is left as a physical format is Blu-ray, which does 1080p.

As the HD format, Blu-ray will eventually dominate over DVD. Not any time soon, it might take a few years...but for entertainment, the market will move to Blu-ray. Though I still see DVD doing well for a while just like VHS did when DVD came around.

Just because threads are created on Blu-ray doesn't mean this is a HD-DVD vs Blu-ray forum. It's a Video Game forum...that's what this site is for, VIDEO GAMES.

As for the spin speeds, that's for reading BLU-RAY discs. Reading an actual DVD will be the same speed as if you were reading a DVD. Like a hybrid drive...it will still have a laser capable of reading DVDs...it will have the same capable speeds. Just like your DVD player can read CDs at speeds you could read CDs on just CD players. Make sense?

Of course they will never make a 360 game on Blu-ray...just like they never did with HD-DVD. There would be no point as the 360 is already stuck with DVD9. That would be like making an external Blu-ray drive for the PS2 and making a PS2 game on Blu-ray...there is just no sense in it.


I've never said HD DVD was coming back (but I get your point), but as you mentioned, its going to take years, and we have no idea what technological leaps will happen in the next two years concerning drive space, IPTV, or internet connections.

For example, how will the United States moving to an all digital cable TV distribution in Feb 2009 for cable television affect internet access?? (Hint: thats the same shit that can handles broadband internet)

Question about the Bluray hybrid comment - Can current Blu Ray drives read DVD's at a comparable DVDx12 speed?


 Yes, example(look down at the specs): http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Reviews/Specific.aspx?ArticleId=19332

 And just because you hear about Blu-ray reading at 1x or 2x doesn't mean it's slower than DVD...that's a misconception. For DVD at 12x, I believe the transfer rate is at around 16-20mbps or something like that...while with Blu-ray, the transfer rate at 1x is 36mbps. And 2x is 72mbps. The stuff people hear about Blu-ray being slower for load times isn't because of a lower transfer rate, it's most likely because of larger files needed to be loaded for HD gaming(files being compressed on 360 discs). Though the faster reading toward the outer edge of the disc is true for ALL discs...including DVD.

@Username2324

Not the best word to use but close enough...essentially a hybrid, red laser for CDs and DVDs and blueish laser for Blu-ray...same difference. 



PSN: Lone_Canis_Lupus