so is this thread started because you realise the 360 is looking like it will become a commercial faliure with the Wii widening its gap, and the PS3 gaining traction.....

or is it because you belive now the 360 has a library comparable to the dreamcast or gamecube? (because honestly it doesnt)

 Yes because I do not post 20 times a day, that automatically implies I've never been here.  Post count doesn't count towards credibility otherwise leo-j and soriku would be the most influential voices on the site.  And I've been on this site since shortly after the wii launched.  How long have you been around?

If we take it too far, Naz, there is nothing absolute in the world at all. When I was about 15, I realized that universal truth that there are no absolutes. When I was about 17, I realized all of the ramifications of this: there is nothing in the world but opinion. Even the sales are opinions: it is my opinion that VGChartz (and NPD and Media Create) are reliable sources of information. Therefore, the numbers they put up are reasonable and valid -- but lots of others would disagree with those opinions, and would argue that VGChartz isn't reliable, and we see even the administrators here question the absolute reliability of a professional service like NPD. There is nothing concrete or definitely, inarguably true.

And then, at 20 or so, I realized that this made any argument of any kind impossible and meaningless; that if we break the world down and insist that everything is opinion and nothing is absolutely true, then we can never agree on anything and discussion and analysis breaks down completely.

So now, I accept that while nothing is entirely objectively true, there are things that are generally more true than other things. One of those things that I'd argue is generally agreed upon is that the Xbox 360 has the current best lineup of games among the available current generation consoles.

It doesn't mean that I personally like all those games. I don't like Halo, but I recognize that it is generally agreed upon that this is a good franchise. You're welcome to take a different philosophical approach, Naz. I fully agree that there are no absolutes in the world; we all draw the line somewhere (for example, I assume we all agree that it is a fact that the Earth is round, even though we've never seen it for ourselves? ) and I suspect I draw the line at a different place than most here.

Sorry to get heavy. It's an enormously complicated issue, so for the most part, ignore this post, as it's likely to get us way off topic.

Sales have a defining source. After that, we extrapolate opinions. Sales numbers may not be exact, but they are something we can meassure.

You could argue that gamerankings is our basis, and yet it clearly is not a concrete determinant of game quality. You say Halo is widely accepted as a good franchise, but I would say that Wii Sports is far more widely accepted as a great game. I'm basing that on sales. Some would base opinions on gamerankings. The problem is in a quality discussion, we don't have a single accepted medium of quality analysis. All we have, are direct opinions.

With sales, we have a mediator for our opinions and analysis. We have a solid and tangible collection of evidence in between all that. Show me the solid evidence we have for quality analysis. Gamerankings sure isn't it. Any statistics class will tell you that 50 reviewers are not enough data sources to have even a slight grasp on popular opinion. Especially not in gaming, where you yourself have criticized reviewers for being so out of touch.

You say it's generally agreed upon that the 360 has the best current lineup, but there dozens (including myslef) that would argue against that right here simply because the 360 lacks platformers and adventure games that they consider quality. If you say the Wii has sold the most worldwide, who is going to argue with you, past those who don't believe any data at all. Those people would be impossible to discuss with anyway.

When you discuss quality you just add way too many variables such as individual tastes, mass market appeal, and coverage of genres.  I understand we can take this too far Bod, but there is a gross difference between sales and quality analysis. That difference is the data set we have available for the discussion.

@The_vagabond7

I came to this forum originally to look at some sales numbers out of curiosity and stayed because of the community here. Originally I had hopes that the site would grow with thought provoking threads and that it would eventually rival NeoGAF. That maybe gaming journalists such as N'Gai Croal and Geoff Keighley or developers like Will Wright and Sid Meier might stop in and make a post. Instead I see the majority of threads basically ruined because some people seem to feel that sales should be talked about absolutely everywhere on the site and a flood of immature people joining with a few quality posters mixed in.

I'm even the person who originally suggested to include seperate Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo forums when it used to be only Website, Sales, Gaming, and Off Topic because I was hoping that might help to get away from the constant trolling (sales and otherwise) but it never worked because off topic threads and posts were never removed from those forums which basically defeated the purpose of them.

What is this defining source?

Retailers, trackers, and reported shipments from publishers. All of these give evidence to mediate sales discussion. None of it is 100% accurate, but it's accurate enough to have a data set. 2+2 = 4. 2.1902342+1.933452 ~ 4. Both allow for a meassure of analysis within a certain degree of accuracy.

Show me a reasonable collection of data on a term as ambiguous as "quality" Bod.

...have you been to gaf? Just because respected people go there occasionally doesn't mean it's not filled with immature idiots. No forum you go to is going to not have idiots in it's community. In fact by definition, for a forum to grow it has to admit idiots into it's ranks. You could argue, the bigger a community gets the stupider it gets.

If you like gaf, go there instead. Like it or lump it this is a site that specializes in one thing very specifically. Sales. And as such 90% of topics are going to involve sales numbers in one way or another.

I don't dislike you one bit, but I really think you're in the wrong place. I can't stand neogaf personally, even if big wigs drop in there on occasion. But alot of people like it, that's their community. More power to them. I feel like this is my community and I enjoy it. But if you don't like discussing the numbers, and if you don't like the community then I'm just not sure this is the place for you, legend.

Sales, metacritic, and legs (As in, how long it sells for) would be the three I'd point to. They are reasonable metrics for quality, and I believe they suffice to reach consensus in clear cases.