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Forums - Microsoft - DirextX 12 - no stream, updates

Zappykins on 22 March 2014
Arkaign said:
Zappykins said:
ICStats said:
Zappykins said:
Fusioncode said:
Zappykins said:
ICStats said:
VitroBahllee said:
I'm watching a liveblog of it now. This is going to really boost the Xbox One.

How will it do that?

They say DX12 is a console like API.  XB1 is already a console.  If it has a boost it would only be because their current SDK is bad.

Nah, it's not like that.  Think of it as like a super optimizing driver.  Only it will give you one platform that does what Steam wants their new OS to do, but with the years of experiences that developers have working on DirectX. It's like a new OS.

Xbox One should get at least a 20% GPU improvement according to what we saw today.  Perhaps significantly greater.

Unreal Engine 4 will get upgraded to work with DirectX 12.

It will be the new standard for is flexibility, scalability and power.  PC and Xbox One games will both benefit.

 

Can you please explain this? I'm curious as to why you think that will happen. 

Well, assuming Xbox One will  at least some of the benifit of a 50% optimization, but probably already is ahead of PC's there.   But even if it doesn't, they stated a 20% reduction in GPU render time per frame, or something to that effect.

Mantle is supposed to give a 20% improvement at well.  It's a bit like mantle.

So I went with a conservative estimate of 20%.  The baseline of the GPU.  However, the scaling across the 8 core CPU might result in greater improvements.

I can't read anything on the slide you attached about a GPU side improvement.

What Mantle does it it improves framerates when you have a powerful GPU and weak CPU, because the CPU becomes the bottleneck.  I've never heard of any actual GPU side speed up per-se.

Also XB1 already has some features for multithreaded rendering, and pre-baking command lists so it already has a lot - if not all - of the gain DX12 will give.

It's also hard to say if CPU is the bottleneck in the XB1, since PS4 has basically the same CPU.

Well, a couple things, Microsoft has said the CPU was the bottle neck for consoles.  Might be spin but that's what they said.  I think they do believe that.  It has some different co processors and stuff that the PS4.  They are really good at squeezing power out of phones, writing popular operating system, business software, and games.  So they designed the Xbox One to do what they wanted it to do within a price.

And in the talk they said 20% GPU improvement on same hardware (or to that effect) - things would render and have 20% of the time left over – during the talk.  Wish I had the slides that were clear.   I get the other parts, like CPU enhancement not apply, but why would you think the GPU improvement would not apply to the Xbox One?

For the primary reason that the low-hanging fruit in DX11 (PC version) is the CPU bottleneck with regards to draw calls, which inhibits the GPU from working more efficiently. IOW, when you transition more of that to low-level API operations, the CPU becomes less of a bottleneck, and the GPU can work more efficiently at it's full capability.

The PS4 and XB1 have fairly weak CPUs. No two ways about that. Still, they pulled off Forza 5 (albeit with some downgrades, but still damned good work really) with a weak CPU and midrange GPU. The performance is a good bit better than a PC with similar specs would be capable of with DX 11, showing that what the XB1 architects said about the console pre-launch was true : that they already had optimized the XB1 SDK to allow for low-level hardware access.

Additional tweaks can be made, but it's not going to be like Mantle with a transition from bottlenecked API to low-level API. It's going to be going from a low-level API to another low-level API, with hopes of gaining some efficiency somewhere. At the same time, the hard limits are there with throughput, shaders, processing bandwidth, and so on. So perhaps they can go from 90% efficiency to 96% efficiency (obviously guesstimation, but you get the idea).

On the other hand, figuring out tricks, helping devs really get on board with optimizing engines to work with XB1, all that stuff can be great. They can figure ways where they're not technically moving more data, but because of how it's laid out and prioritized, it looks substantially better.

Check out here they talk about how the GPU is "20GFLOPS per frame is 20x60 = 1200GFLOPS/sec? 20% improvement? " and other stuff.  But I don't think there is a slide.  Check it out from the feed here:

http://www.pcper.com/news/Graphics-Cards/Microsoft-DirectX-12-Live-Blog-Recap

Yes, they are talking about a video card in a PC. So guess we will have to wait to know more. 

Now I'm think what would have happend had it it that DDR4 launch window.  It was supposed to be out a while ago.



 

Really not sure I see any point of Consol over PC's since Kinect, Wii and other alternative ways to play have been abandoned. 

Top 50 'most fun' game list coming soon!

 

Tell me a funny joke!
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ICStats on 22 March 2014

I am confident both XB1 and PS4 still have a lot to be optimized out of the GPU, especially in terms of compute shaders, and better shader compilers. Sony is going to write stuff by hand to get maximum performance beyond what compilers can do. All I'm saying is I didn't see what in DX12 features gave a boost to the GPU performance.

Sure if the game is bottlenecked by CPU and can't use 20% of the GPU currently then a faster driver is going to let games use that 20% - but this is not the GPU going faster, per se.

GPU going faster would be if the GPU could now punch above it's weight thanks to a new technique or unique feature.



My 8th gen collection

dahuman on 07 April 2014
fatslob-:O said:
dahuman said:

The problem is you are arguing for argument sake like always and have no vision for the masses but instead encircle yourslef in your own world.

The one who's arguing here is you. It is a fact that linux will end up as always irrelevant towards what the masses want to do. Your the one with no vision around here. Dreams and reality are separated. Just what kind of reality do you wish for people to use half assed solutions ? 

For as long as you are alive, you are a "consumer," saying you don't care is pretty much saying that you don't give a fuck about yourself which I clearly see that's not true so that's full of shit.

This is exactly the kind of shit I keep hearing from paranoid hipster protesters ... Nice use of false equivalence right there. Why should consumers be worried about software rights when it gets the JOB done ? 

Linux is half asses because it doesn't have proper driver support and is the reason why they are only being used as servers at their best utility ATM, if Valve can achieve what other are not able to, not only will Linux not be half assed in the future, it will actually be better, and we should always strive for a better alternative instead of living in a world of monopolization purly run by corporates that are doing whatever they can to give us inferior products with tiny anual upgrades in which they charge the people full prices for.

Driver support isn't the only thing that is lacking. It lacks alot of premium high quality software from windows such as video and photo editors, games, as well as other productivity softwares. I'd rather a monopoly that fucking WORK than a POS that doesn't WORK. 

Consumers don't care about software rights, but they sure as hell care about the amount of dollars they can spend, especially students or people who don't have a real job but are trying to step up into the world without dying from hunger or vitamin deficiency first. Open source free software/hardware has brought so much to the field already, and this is a push in an even better direction.

Consumers do care about the money they spend but why focus working with half assed tools when windows just gets the job done alot better ?

You don't have to get AMD to quit making desktop CPUs, they are already irrelevant vs Intel ATM, and look what's happening with Intel CPU roadmaps, shit ass tiny upgrades every year even though their technology can already push 5 years ahead due to no competition. If the same thing happens to Nvidia vs AMD graphics, we'd be just as fucked on the graphics front.

Atleast the AMD vs Intel shit is actually more competitive than what the Windows vs Linux will ever be. If having a 20% market share isn't worth shit then having under 5% is simply pathetic. 

WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO BREAK OUT OF WINDOWS FOR PC COMPUTING SO THEY CAN WORK HARDER AND MAKE AN EVEN BETTER WINDOWS TO LURE US BACK OR WE'LL JUST GET MORE SHIT LIKE WINDOWS 8!

Windows 8 was mediocre but I'd still have that than Linux. 

The problem is you don't know what you are talking about since free software works just as well if not better. The whole licensing and support deal is mainly for corporates and not meant for end users to start with as that's where they make their real money from.

Image editing-

GIMP (http://www.gimp.org/ )

Video editing-

 

Productivity-

Unfortunately, games can only come with proper driver support, but none of the programs I have listed doesn't work, we don't live in the 90's anymore, you are either ill informed or pretty much out of touch with computing as a whole. Not to mention we are moving to a mobile world where Windows is not even close to being dominant in but is instead populated by Linux.