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Forums - General - Would Christianity be as successful without the Heaven reward?

MohammadBadir said:
JazzB1987 said:
MohammadBadir said:
JazzB1987 said:

But then Muslim Fanatism is also successful because they believe a billion sexy virgins are waiting for them.  I wonder if "you will have to have sex with alot of males if you dont go and explode somewhere" will work (you know ONLY punishment no reward)

wut?

I've been a muslim all my life and i've never heard of that.

I am not talking about normal people like you. As far as I know this is also not part of any "official" quran, its just something the leaders make up to fool idiots into thinking that they get a reward for going boom. I am solely talking about people screaming this:

most of us don't even consider those people real muslims. as far as i know, anyone who kills for the heck of it has committed islam's greatest sin, which is killing, and suicide falls into that category.

Who's to say they're "killing for the heck of it"? Many of them that suicide bomb believe they are committing a righteous act in the name of Allah (I've seen several manifestos, if you will, saying that they honor Allah by destroying the enemies that are considered perversions against Islam). Who are you to claim they are wrong, because you interpreted the Quran differently? They are no less a "real" Muslim than you are.

It's the same reason , for example, that we have churches like Southern Baptists who vehemently try to deny gay rights due to some Bible verses, but the United Church of Christ believes in equality for all, because of some other Bible verses. Which ones are the "real" Christians?

Open interpretation of holy text is what makes many religions popular, because it basically allows you to do anything while still following "God's Will". Toss in Heaven, and you've got a recipe for success. But because it's allowed to be openly interpreted, no one is more or less "real" than the next person because 9 times out of 10, whatever verse you believe is true and is justification for whatever actions you have, someone else can find a contradictory verse a second later.

But if it isn't open to interpretation, and there's only 1 set of proper beliefs to be had, it wouldn't be nearly as popular. Christianity only took off in Europe when the Bible started being printed in vernacular and everyone could read it and come up with their own conclusions, instead of having to go through a middle man to know "what God was thinking"



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BMaker11 said:

Who's to say they're "killing for the heck of it"? Many of them that suicide bomb believe they are committing a righteous act in the name of Allah (I've seen several manifestos, if you will, saying that they honor Allah by destroying the enemies that are considered perversions against Islam). Who are you to claim they are wrong, because you interpreted the Quran differently? They are no less a "real" Muslim than you are.

It's the same reason , for example, that we have churches like Southern Baptists who vehemently try to deny gay rights due to some Bible verses, but the United Church of Christ believes in equality for all, because of some other Bible verses. Which ones are the "real" Christians?

Open interpretation of holy text is what makes many religions popular, because it basically allows you to do anything while still following "God's Will". Toss in Heaven, and you've got a recipe for success. But because it's allowed to be openly interpreted, no one is more or less "real" than the next person because 9 times out of 10, whatever verse you believe is true and is justification for whatever actions you have, someone else can find a contradictory verse a second later.

But if it isn't open to interpretation, and there's only 1 set of proper beliefs to be had, it wouldn't be nearly as popular. Christianity only took off in Europe when the Bible started being printed in vernacular and everyone could read it and come up with their own conclusions, instead of having to go through a middle man to know "what God was thinking"

that's the thing though. Prophet Mohammad explained what the Quran said to the Muslims while it was being written(23 years), and all the things that were said by him were written in the "Hadeth" and those original explanations remain to this day. there's only 1 interpretation of the Quran.

BTW, I don't want to turn this thread into an Islam debate so let's agree to disagree.



MohammadBadir said:
BMaker11 said:

Who's to say they're "killing for the heck of it"? Many of them that suicide bomb believe they are committing a righteous act in the name of Allah (I've seen several manifestos, if you will, saying that they honor Allah by destroying the enemies that are considered perversions against Islam). Who are you to claim they are wrong, because you interpreted the Quran differently? They are no less a "real" Muslim than you are.

It's the same reason , for example, that we have churches like Southern Baptists who vehemently try to deny gay rights due to some Bible verses, but the United Church of Christ believes in equality for all, because of some other Bible verses. Which ones are the "real" Christians?

Open interpretation of holy text is what makes many religions popular, because it basically allows you to do anything while still following "God's Will". Toss in Heaven, and you've got a recipe for success. But because it's allowed to be openly interpreted, no one is more or less "real" than the next person because 9 times out of 10, whatever verse you believe is true and is justification for whatever actions you have, someone else can find a contradictory verse a second later.

But if it isn't open to interpretation, and there's only 1 set of proper beliefs to be had, it wouldn't be nearly as popular. Christianity only took off in Europe when the Bible started being printed in vernacular and everyone could read it and come up with their own conclusions, instead of having to go through a middle man to know "what God was thinking"

that's the thing though. Prophet Mohammad explained what the Quran said to the Muslims while it was being written(23 years), and all the things that were said by him were written in the "Hadeth" and those original explanations remain to this day. there's only 1 interpretation of the Quran.

BTW, I don't want to turn this thread into an Islam debate so let's agree to disagree.

Oh no, that's not what I was going for. It tied back to the reward of Heaven. If there was no reward of Heaven, then why in the world would anyone follow the Bible (or Quran, Torah, etc)? It would diminish people's reverence for it. What I was trying to say, though, was that people interpret holy text however they want, and they truly believe they are trying to live out God's word. But there are so many interpretations that one person doesn't have the right to say another person isn't "real" or "true".

And I'd really like to know how you came to the conclusion that there's only 1 interpretaion of Islam. The fact that there's Sunni and Shia shows that there isn't. And sure, you have the Hadith, and they could have been "explained" when they were written, but they can still be interpreted different. The Bible says that Jesus said "love thy neighbor as thyself. It is the greatest commandment" (beside loving God). Seems pretty straightforward, right? But people still interpret it differently. One camp says "this means that we are to love each other unconditionally" and another says "you are loving your neighbor by telling him about following God. I don't want you to suffer in hell. I would actually be hating you if I didn't tell you about God and his laws, and the consequences for not obeying", for example.

This all ties back into Christianity (or any religion) being successful with/without heaven, but to prevent this from derailing or going too far off topic, yes, agree to disagree

 



BMaker11 said:
MohammadBadir said:
BMaker11 said:

Who's to say they're "killing for the heck of it"? Many of them that suicide bomb believe they are committing a righteous act in the name of Allah (I've seen several manifestos, if you will, saying that they honor Allah by destroying the enemies that are considered perversions against Islam). Who are you to claim they are wrong, because you interpreted the Quran differently? They are no less a "real" Muslim than you are.

It's the same reason , for example, that we have churches like Southern Baptists who vehemently try to deny gay rights due to some Bible verses, but the United Church of Christ believes in equality for all, because of some other Bible verses. Which ones are the "real" Christians?

Open interpretation of holy text is what makes many religions popular, because it basically allows you to do anything while still following "God's Will". Toss in Heaven, and you've got a recipe for success. But because it's allowed to be openly interpreted, no one is more or less "real" than the next person because 9 times out of 10, whatever verse you believe is true and is justification for whatever actions you have, someone else can find a contradictory verse a second later.

But if it isn't open to interpretation, and there's only 1 set of proper beliefs to be had, it wouldn't be nearly as popular. Christianity only took off in Europe when the Bible started being printed in vernacular and everyone could read it and come up with their own conclusions, instead of having to go through a middle man to know "what God was thinking"

that's the thing though. Prophet Mohammad explained what the Quran said to the Muslims while it was being written(23 years), and all the things that were said by him were written in the "Hadeth" and those original explanations remain to this day. there's only 1 interpretation of the Quran.

BTW, I don't want to turn this thread into an Islam debate so let's agree to disagree.

Oh no, that's not what I was going for. It tied back to the reward of Heaven. If there was no reward of Heaven, then why in the world would anyone follow the Bible (or Quran, Torah, etc)? It would diminish people's reverence for it. What I was trying to say, though, was that people interpret holy text however they want, and they truly believe they are trying to live out God's word. But there are so many interpretations that one person doesn't have the right to say another person isn't "real" or "true".

And I'd really like to know how you came to the conclusion that there's only 1 interpretaion of Islam. The fact that there's Sunni and Shia shows that there isn't. And sure, you have the Hadith, and they could have been "explained" when they were written, but they can still be interpreted different. The Bible says that Jesus said "love thy neighbor as thyself. It is the greatest commandment" (beside loving God). Seems pretty straightforward, right? But people still interpret it differently. One camp says "this means that we are to love each other unconditionally" and another says "you are loving your neighbor by telling him about following God. I don't want you to suffer in hell. I would actually be hating you if I didn't tell you about God and his laws, and the consequences for not obeying", for example.

This all ties back into Christianity (or any religion) being successful with/without heaven, but to prevent this from derailing or going too far off topic, yes, agree to disagree

 

the Hadith contains Mohammad's words which were explained to him through God himself, that's how i came to that conclusion.

OT:  i don't think the Religions would have even gotten this far had they not promised heaven to the believers and hell to the non-believers.



Church's power came from the fear of hell, not the promise of heaven.

I still think they should add a score system and DLCs (they tried microtransactions in middle age but that was lost with modern days)



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MohammadBadir said:

the Hadith contains Mohammad's words which were explained to him through God himself, that's how i came to that conclusion.

OT:  i don't think the Religions would have even gotten this far had they not promised heaven to the believers and hell to the non-believers.

There's isn't one hadith with one exaplanation, though. There's a different set of hadiths for the different sects of Islam (because they were interpreted differently. That's why there's different sects in the first place). Unless the hadiths you don't adhere to just so happen to be "wrong". But that just falls back to open interpretation. I hate to keep calling you back to the thread, but "there's only 1 interpretation of Islam" is absurdly false. But, then again, it's natural to believe that your own beliefs are what's correct and everyone else is wrong. As much as you say "there's only 1 interpretation" and it happens to be the way you interpret it, another Muslim could say to you "no, that's not the 1 interpretation. This is the 1 interpretation". Who would be, objectively, wrong? Neither. This is what makes religious beliefs popular when you think you're getting heaven at the end of the road.



BMaker11 said:
MohammadBadir said:

the Hadith contains Mohammad's words which were explained to him through God himself, that's how i came to that conclusion.

OT:  i don't think the Religions would have even gotten this far had they not promised heaven to the believers and hell to the non-believers.

There's isn't one hadith with one exaplanation, though. There's a different set of hadiths for the different sects of Islam (because they were interpreted differently. That's why there's different sects in the first place). Unless the hadiths you don't adhere to just so happen to be "wrong". But that just falls back to open interpretation. I hate to keep calling you back to the thread, but "there's only 1 interpretation of Islam" is absurdly false. But, then again, it's natural to believe that your own beliefs are what's correct and everyone else is wrong. As much as you say "there's only 1 interpretation" and it happens to be the way you interpret it, another Muslim could say to you "no, that's not the 1 interpretation. This is the 1 interpretation". Who would be, objectively, wrong? Neither. This is what makes religious beliefs popular when you think you're getting heaven at the end of the road.

the original Hadith prints are still located at Meccah :P

reading through my posts, i guess i worded some things wrongly.



padib said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

A related question, to all Christians this time, would be: Would you still be a Christian even if God didn't offer you a seat in Heaven?

Simple answer, impossible. The reason is that eternal life heaven is exactly part of what being God means, it's part of the plan of salvation and Christ makes no sense otherwise. He would have died in vain.

I can go in greater detail, but a God like that would make no sense to me and I would reject him.


So a God that creates the Universe, makes way for your existence, knows exactly what is right and what is wrong and, potentially, answers your prayers would not be worth applying to unless you get an eternal reward in return?

Also, keep in mind that without risking going to hell there is no need for salvation. In this case Jesus didn't die for your sins, he solely died for what he believed/knew was the right way to live your life and how you should treat your neighbour.



Its the hell that makes people listen, not heaven. Like mentioned before.



''Hadouken!''

Ajax said:
Its the hell that makes people listen, not heaven. Like mentioned before.


Though hell is mentioned in the OP, I personally don't think that hell can compare to the possibility of meeting up with your family and friends after you die.