Tombi, you mentioned "general", and again, that's not the same as necessary. Again, I know the benificial mutations TEND to survive, the only problem is, they happen at random, and so that would have to make the process rather random as a whole.

Andir: "So, if you don't give God your love, then you shall be forced to live an eternity of suffering? How is this any different than a "need"? If he doesn't need you to love him, why would you be threatened with eternal damnnation for not doing as your told? Why does he need to strike fear into you to get what he "wants"?" Yes, because, that is the only other option. Its either him, or not him, which is hell. Also, hurting someone for not giving you what you want doesn't constitute a need, as you seem to imply.

senseinobaka: "Both groups enjoy the ransom sacrafice and are made clean from adamic sin when they die." No, they don't. In Revelations, and many other places, it specifically says that there will be a judgement, and that some will go to heaven, and others to the lake of fire. If they were indeed cleansed of their sins, then they would not be condemned, contrary to that which does happen. And as for the context of the Corinthian verse, all throughout the chapter it refers to the body as a tent in which we live. "2)You claim that humans are some kind of soul/spirit hybrid. Genesis does not say that. They are just a soul" Again, in Genesis, it says that man was created in his image, and that man had the breath of life, distinguishing us from animal life, and forcing us to accept some other property than just the phyical, as God does not have a physical image in which we could be created.

Final fan: I would, of course, agree with you on the "forever and ever" context, but I should clarify what I mean by death in that context. I'm saying you can't destroy "death", which means here physical death, in any sense because thats non-sensical. It would be like God throwing the idea of orbiting into hell. That doesn't make any sense. Therefore, I would say that the Death refered to here is not the physical death.

Ugh, lots o' posts. Perhaps we could condense our arguments somewhere else?

 Not really. A jail is a place where someone is kept. The scripture states that Satan will be kept/jailed in nonexistence as represented by the lake of fire and the second death. It's not a literal jail with concrete walls and iron bars. 

 Even if satan is destroyed and becomes nonexistant, God still holds the power of bringing him back. This scripture emphasizes the fact that such an occurance will NEVER happen.

Everytime I post on a religion topic. I usually post it because people have curious questions about religion. And I post since it could help thier faith. I'm usually not the kind of person whos gonna tell you "YOUR GONNA GO TO HELL!!!" just a person who wants to help. But I realize a lot of people here don't want to know anything. Just feel like arguing. For reals Imma stop posting here after this

"believe that that guy was ever a evolutionist lecturer" well he is

"ALL of the examples of 'creatures that defy evolution' can be easily explained by evolution" Thats wierd... Didn't he say he made question to the evolutionist and the evolutionist did not have an answer to him. Like the woodpeckers tounge?

"I am certainly not a biologist. I have no knowledge of biology above GCSE level, but even I could explain how some of those creatures evolved." Hey thats not a bad idea. Maybe you should make your own documentary or get people to sponsor your video "I that defy creatures that defy evolution". You would put an end to this lying progapanda, to this creationist!!!  Since offcourse you got the answers to them."

"I suggest you read a couple of books by Richard Dawkins, or just any book on evolution to get a better understanding of evolution." Ok I'll do that, but next time give one in general, and what parts of the book that helped you understand evolution

 "Then make up your mind on whether God designed us or if we evolved." Eh once I read it. I'll let you know

"Notice that the vast majority of Human eyes are not perfect. This suggests to me that an omnipotent God has not designed them because they are not perfect. The imperfections in the eye are to be expected if the eye has been evolving over thousands of years, thus backing up and providing even more evidence for evolution. "

This is confusing. Just because the guy said our eyes are perfect (In a sence of how its form)(And compared probably to most animals, like our brain) it proves evolution because most people have poorsight, which you believe has been evolving over the years. (despite all the things today that cause people to wear glasses) . Now if someone is born blind, blindsighted or has any other kind of eye dieasses they disaprove God? If i poke my eye out i disaprove God? If I die, and my eyes turn to dust I'm dissaproving God?  Are our eyes supposed to live forever? Should we be having all kinds of dieasses on our body but not our eyes?

So yea.. if people where really interested in God (note not religion) they woun't be posting on furroms. Instead of posting, they would be researching on thier own. But I guess no one is interested.

And to andir

"So, if you don't give God your love, then you shall be forced to live an eternity of suffering?  How is this any different than a "need"?  If he doesn't need you to love him, why would you be threatened with eternal damnnation for not doing as your told?  Why does he need to strike fear into you to get what he "wants"?"

Ok look at this way. God sets up rules, don't kill, don't steal, don't mistreat your parents. Now you say why should we listen to God when where good well moral people. We can make our own good choices.

Jesus one time said "bless is the one who does not know me" In the bible Jesus says thier will be people who will never know anything about God. So when they die they will be judge on thier actions instead of faith. Now lets say you will go on living your life trying not to do bad things. But were all humans we all do bad things. You've probably done some bad things, for your incovenience, for fun, or because you can. But anyways in the end, is it really that bad to say "You know what I've done some bad things, I really lament what I did I will confess it to God" or to emptyspace for some. I don't know if you ever felt that feeling in the back of your brain telling you, youve done something wrong. But since humans for thier inconveninces don't go an extra step by confessing, going to church ect... start saying " Eh God understands he knows I lament what I did, I'm not a bad person"

In the end when we die. God will judge us and he is rightous, he is fair.

God judges you and says " Andir!! You have commited Adultery!!! You will go to hell for your sins".

God judges me saying "Poeta you have commited murder!!!! But you have repented to me and ask for my forgiviness, actullay lamenting for what you did and your best not to do it againg.. You can proceed to heaven"!!!!!

Its not just about giving love to God. hope you understood what I meant. 

ZOMG

RELIGOUS WARRR

but seriously..........
it doesn't matter whether there's a god or not
IMO, human thinking is constantly moving forward. To answer the questions humans had thousands of years ago, religion provided an answer to all those questions. Relgions were built upon older societies/religions (several prominent bible stories are directly from babylonian myths, such as Genesis. Genesis borrowed a lot from the Epic of Gilgamesh, which is a babylonian story)

religion was the pinnacle of the evolution of human thought ...... until the past century..

science is proof of what human thinking has evolved into, and to totally dismiss blatant scientific proof of something is quite ignorant. for example, i have quite literally, met someone who said gravity is not real. they say there is a mystic force that attracts all things to the ground.

Fair enough, but what is the motivation?  If God somehow orchestrated the stars and molecules to put humans on Earth, what is the purpose to make it known that he exists... as some would say the Bible was written to carry on the teachings and why does God need preachers and churches to carry that word?

The Bible sounds to me like a well written piece of marketting that does it's job well.  It sells people on the idea that there is a force in the universe that doesn't control you, doesn't make itself evident, and wants you to follow a specific set of rules out of trust that someday you will go on to live a better existance.  So, great... why not just live your life whatever way you can/will instead of preaching this to everyone else?  Why must priests and churches exist to spread the word of God if it's a non-binding contract (ie: no ill effects)? Why can't you believe that God exists without having to go to church every sunday and praise him?  Why pray?  If God is all knowing and knows what is best, why request a change in your life?  If God controls your existance and created you for a purpose, why defy that purpose by changing your life to praise him unless that's his purpose... if this is the case... why does God need praise?  Why does God need anything from us unless he himself is/was a human and has/had needs?

If your wondering where I'm going with this, I think (as I've alluded to) that God is a human creation used to control people and explain the unknown.  That's it.  Without proof to such a being, there's no point in preaching these beliefs unless you seek to change the way someone else lives and thus fight the will of any God that did create us and fight his purpose for putting us here.

Then why give an ultimatum?  Why would you be any different for believing or not believing?  If you give an ultimatum, you require that that person do something opposed to their natural course.  Want is need.  You need them to do something, for some reason.

@ senseinobaka: I think we've gone about as far as we can with only this one passage, and I frankly don't feel like doing the research to expand the debate properly. I believe that puts us in "agree to disagree" territory, for now anyway.

Why is it that everyone who argues against the existance of God seems incapable of understanding that just because God is ALL POWERFUL does not mean that God is somehow incapable of refraining from using that power to force people to do things. This view is only held by those who are inherently weak. When you KNOW you have power, power that is yours and can never be taken away from you, there is NO NEED TO ABUSE IT. People who abuse power do it almost ALWAYS out of a lack of intelligence, out of fear of losing their power, or because the extent of their power is actually very limited in scope.

God knows how the universe works, and he created humans with free will. If he did all the work for them, it would be pointless, he's god, he's all powerful, he already knows that he can succeed. The point comes from watching and guiding an imperfect being towards perfection. He knows all the rules, these rules are really tough to learn and remember, so in order to make sure it sticks, sometimes it's gotta be learned the hard way, but the right answer has to be kept out there and constantly available so people can have that choice available to make.

why do math teachers inevidably insist on teaching us that 2 + 2 = 4? Because that's teh right answer, sure, there may be a bunch of jackasses that try to get you to believe it's 3. There may be other people who confuse teh issue by telling you it's 20/5ths, but it still boils down to the fact that they tell you it because that's teh answer.

On the contrary... I think a lot of people here want to know the truth.  Going through life asking if you're doing the right thing is kind of counterproductive, no?  Going through life ignoring the truth and accepting whatever you're told is easy.  And you leave the conversation with your idea of what is right or wrong, ignoring the answer and just accepting God is akin to sticking your fingers in your ear and screaming "I'm not listening."  I don't mean that offensively, but look at it from the perspective of everyone outside the "in" club.  "If you cannot just accept it, you have failed and will never accept it."  At least that's what you're telling me.  Except in this discussion, you're telling me that I will forever be lost because I'm discussing the idea and not getting the answers or proof that is needed.  And why can't I have that proof?

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Why does God need rules?  If he put us on this Earth to live our lives, why does he need/want us to live by these specific rules?  Why must people live by certain rules in order to please God and get accepted?  To me, it sounds like a child setting house rules.  Only I get to play with the red car.  If you play with the red car, you have to leave and never come back.

It isn't an ulitmatum.  (my) Christian theology indicates that God did not want to force us to love Him, so he gave us the only other option; not Him, which is a very painful thing (according to theology again).  And want is not need.  You asked why God would need us to go and do the preaching and teaching of His word, because He is all-powerful.  I assume you were implying that that request of God meant he couldn't do it Himself.