Grey Acumen said: Why is it that everyone who argues against the existance of God seems incapable of understanding that just because God is ALL POWERFUL does not mean that God is somehow incapable of refraining from using that power to force people to do things. This view is only held by those who are inherently weak. When you KNOW you have power, power that is yours and can never be taken away from you, there is NO NEED TO ABUSE IT. People who abuse power do it almost ALWAYS out of a lack of intelligence, out of fear of losing their power, or because the extent of their power is actually very limited in scope. God knows how the universe works, and he created humans with free will. If he did all the work for them, it would be pointless, he's god, he's all powerful, he already knows that he can succeed. The point comes from watching and guiding an imperfect being towards perfection. He knows all the rules, these rules are really tough to learn and remember, so in order to make sure it sticks, sometimes it's gotta be learned the hard way, but the right answer has to be kept out there and constantly available so people can have that choice available to make. why do math teachers inevidably insist on teaching us that 2 + 2 = 4? Because that's teh right answer, sure, there may be a bunch of jackasses that try to get you to believe it's 3. There may be other people who confuse teh issue by telling you it's 20/5ths, but it still boils down to the fact that they tell you it because that's teh answer.

Then why use the power in the first place?  Was God afraid of losing the power if he didn't use it?  Are we toys in his box of games?

And how can you prove that the answer is that there is one God?  I know that if I have 2 lemons and add another 2 lemons, I'll have 4 lemons.  I can see them.  How are you so certain that thier is one God controlling everything?  Why couldn't there be 12 Gods?  What's the defining evidence that there's only one?

appolose said: Andir said: Then why give an ultimatum?  Why would you be any different for believing or not believing?  If you give an ultimatum, you require that that person do something opposed to their natural course.  Want is need.  You need them to do something, for some reason. It isn't an ulitmatum.  (my) Christian theology indicates that God did not want to force us to love Him, so he gave us the only other option; not Him, which is a very painful thing (according to theology again).  And want is not need.  You asked why God would need us to go and do the preaching and teaching of His word, because He is all-powerful.  I assume you were implying that that request of God meant he couldn't do it Himself.

If it isn't an ultimatum, what is it?  You either are, or you aren't.  That's pretty binary.  If you aren't, you shall be denied something.

Saying that he is all powerful isn't an answer to the question.  What does his power have to do with humans telling each other he is all powerful?  And why does he need humans to do this?  Why gloat about all this power he has?  To what end?  To give or deny you love?  How is that not an ultimatum?

Andir said: Poeta said: But I realize a lot of people here don't want to know anything. Just feel like arguing. For reals Imma stop posting here after this. ------------------------------------------------------------- "So, if you don't give God your love, then you shall be forced to live an eternity of suffering? How is this any different than a "need"? If he doesn't need you to love him, why would you be threatened with eternal damnnation for not doing as your told? Why does he need to strike fear into you to get what he "wants"?" Ok look at this way. God sets up rules, don't kill, don't steal, don't mistreat your parents. Now you say why should we listen to God when where good well moral people. We can make our own good choices. Jesus one time said "bless is the one who does not know me" In the bible Jesus says thier will be people who will never knew anything about God. So when they die they will be judge on thier actions instead of faith. Now you will go on living your life trying not to do bad things. But were all humans we all do bad things. You've probably done some bad things, for your incovenience, for fun, or because you can. But anyways in the end, is it really that bad to say "You know what I've done some bad things, I feel really bad for doing them" to God? to emptyspace for some. I don't know if you ever felt that feeling in the back of your brain telling you, youve done something wrong. In the end when we die. God judges you and says " Andir!! You have commited Adultery!!! You will go to hell for your sins". God judges me saying "Poeta you have commited murder!!!! But you have repented to me and ask for my forgiviness, actullay lamenting for what you did and your best not to do it againg.. You can proceed to heaven"!!!!! Its not just about giving love to God. hope you understood what I meant. On the contrary... I think a lot of people here want to know the truth. Going through life asking if you're doing the right thing is kind of counterproductive, no? Going through life ignoring the truth and accepting whatever you're told is easy. And you leave the conversation with your idea of what is right or wrong, ignoring the answer and just accepting God is akin to sticking your fingers in your ear and screaming "I'm not listening." I don't mean that offensively, but look at it from the perspective of everyone outside the "in" club. "If you cannot just accept it, you have failed and will never accept it." At least that's what you're telling me. Except in this discussion, you're telling me that I will forever be lost because I'm discussing the idea and not getting the answers or proof that is needed. And why can't I have that proof? ----------------- Why does God need rules? If he put us on this Earth to live our lives, why does he need/want us to live by these specific rules? Why must people live by certain rules in order to please God and get accepted? To me, it sounds like a child setting house rules. Only I get to play with the red car. If you play with the red car, you have to leave and never come back.

You seem to miss his point. If there were no rules. There would be no reasoning to do anything. Everyone would be equal and equally accepted. Making no choice wrong. If no choice is wrong, you arn't helping an imperfect being into be perfect.

You are making there be no imperfection.

If god accepted you the same for anything you've ever did... then basically all of your choices would be completely pointless in the long run. 

The "burning in hell" thing isn't literal for a lot of christians.  To a lot... and I think as is the pope's vision right now.  Would generally be that god is disapointed in you... and that in of itself would be hell.

I mean, I gotta imagine you'd feel pretty crappy if the creator of all of existance was disapointed in you. 

Also, if you want proof of the existance of god.

Manchester City just beat Manchester United.

Seems like a miracle to me.

appolose said: senseinobaka: "Both groups enjoy the ransom sacrafice and are made clean from adamic sin when they die." No, they don't. In Revelations, and many other places, it specifically says that there will be a judgement, and that some will go to heaven, and others to the lake of fire. If they were indeed cleansed of their sins, then they would not be condemned, contrary to that which does happen. And as for the context of the Corinthian verse, all throughout the chapter it refers to the body as a tent in which we live. "2)You claim that humans are some kind of soul/spirit hybrid. Genesis does not say that. They are just a soul" Again, in Genesis, it says that man was created in his image, and that man had the breath of life, distinguishing us from animal life, and forcing us to accept some other property than just the phyical, as God does not have a physical image in which we could be created.

OK, now you are refering to Rev 20:13-15. First off, you are confirming exactly what I am saying. I'll run a comparison between what you are saying and what the bible is saying.

1)Rev 20:13 says that the sea, death, and hades gave up those who are dead.

You are saying that only those who are faithful or saved are released from death.

Where you went wrong. You ignored the many times the bible says the resurrection will be of both righteous and unrighteous AND you are putting words in the bible's mouth. Rev 20:13 puts no limit on who is being resurrected, you are.

2)Next Rev 20:13 says that those resurrected will be resurrected and judged according to there deeds.

You say that they will be judged according to the deed commited in their sinful life.

Where you went wrong. You again ignored scripture. This time romans that says that sins are forgiven upon death. Resurrected individuals will be resurrected to an Earth ruled by God's Kingdom and these individuals will no longer be shackled by sin. So for the first time they will have the ability to chose their lifestyle as free moral agents free from adamic sin. They will be judged according to there deeds when they are on this fair playing ground. Those who chose to rebel against God will be thrown into the lake of fire and experience second death, the one they will never be resurrected from.(Rev 20:14) [as a side note, I cant imagine someone that dumb, but the bible fortells MANY being that dumb]

 

As for your claim on creation. You focus on "breath of life" as being something only man has received. This is incorrect according to the bible. The word for "breath of life" is neshama. Neshama is used again in Genesis at Gen 7:22-23. This is during the flood, and it states "Everything in which the breath of the force of life[NESHEMA] was active in its nostrils, namely, all that were on the dry ground, died. Thus he wiped out every existing thing that was on the surface of the ground, from man to beast, to moving animal and to flying creature of the heavens, and they were wiped off the earth; and only Noah and those who were with him in the ark kept on surviving" So clearly animals also received the breath of life.

Furthermore, being made in gods image doesnt mean we are spirit creatures. We can't even see spirit creatures. It refers to the major difference between animal and man. Like God, we have free will, and are wise, thinkers, and follow morals. We have the same emotions and qualities that god has, such as love.

Poeta said: Everytime I post on a religion topic. I usually post it because people have curious questions about religion. And I post since it could help thier faith. I'm usually not the kind of person whos gonna tell you "YOUR GONNA GO TO HELL!!!" just a person who wants to help. But I realize a lot of people here don't want to know anything. Just feel like arguing. For reals Imma stop posting here after this "believe that that guy was ever a evolutionist lecturer" well he is "ALL of the examples of 'creatures that defy evolution' can be easily explained by evolution" Thats wierd... Didn't he say he made question to the evolutionist and the evolutionist did not have an answer to him. Like the woodpeckers tounge? "I am certainly not a biologist. I have no knowledge of biology above GCSE level, but even I could explain how some of those creatures evolved." Hey thats not a bad idea. Maybe you should make your own documentary or get people to sponsor your video "I that defy creatures that defy evolution". You would put an end to this lying progapanda, to this creationist!!! Since offcourse you got the answers to them." "I suggest you read a couple of books by Richard Dawkins, or just any book on evolution to get a better understanding of evolution." Ok I'll do that, but next time give one in general, and what parts of the book that helped you understand evolution "Then make up your mind on whether God designed us or if we evolved." Eh once I read it. I'll let you know "Notice that the vast majority of Human eyes are not perfect. This suggests to me that an omnipotent God has not designed them because they are not perfect. The imperfections in the eye are to be expected if the eye has been evolving over thousands of years, thus backing up and providing even more evidence for evolution. " This is confusing. Just because the guy said our eyes are perfect (In a sence of how its form)(And compared probably to most animals, like our brain) it proves evolution because most people have poorsight, which you believe has been evolving over the years. (despite all the things today that cause people to wear glasses) . Now if someone is born blind, blindsighted or has any other kind of eye dieasses they disaprove God? If i poke my eye out i disaprove God? If I die, and my eyes turn to dust I'm dissaproving God? Are our eyes supposed to live forever? Should we be having all kinds of dieasses on our body but not our eyes? So yea.. if people where really interested in God (note not religion) they woun't be posting on furroms. Instead of posting, they would be researching on thier own. But I guess no one is interested.

You say "Well he IS". This may be a slip of the tongue (metaphorically) because he is presently (apparently) and ANTI-evolutionist speaker. If you meant to say "well he WAS" then you ought to have provided a source.

An anecdote of "well I asked this guy to explain it and he couldn't" means nothing. Assuming the "guy" in question was even trained at all instead of some poor sap on the street who like most people accepts evolution (sorry not watching the whole video just to find out) -- even in that case there's no reason to expect EVERYone with any scientific training pertaining to evolution to be able to explain how a particular trait of a particular type of creature came to evolve. Not every scientist on the planet can be an expert on woodpeckers. The important thing is whether someone who IS knowledgeable on the (alleged) evolution of woodpeckers can aswer that question, which they certainly can and have done, including specifically in response to this challenge.

Many people have done debunkings of this sort already. Maybe not on this particular speaker (although I wouldn't be surprised) but certainly on his arguments.

I was expecting you to come back with something like "well God chose not to give us perfect bodies because we're imperfect" because although I would question why God gave some of us defective parts it makes a lot more sense than "BUT IF I POKE MY EYE OUT GOD STILL EXISTS". Also I believe that you are incorrect about our eyes being the best; birds of prey (falcons etc.) have ridiculously good eyesight. And then there's the insanely good vision of mantis shrimp.

Andir said: appolose said: Andir said: Then why give an ultimatum?  Why would you be any different for believing or not believing?  If you give an ultimatum, you require that that person do something opposed to their natural course.  Want is need.  You need them to do something, for some reason. It isn't an ulitmatum.  (my) Christian theology indicates that God did not want to force us to love Him, so he gave us the only other option; not Him, which is a very painful thing (according to theology again).  And want is not need.  You asked why God would need us to go and do the preaching and teaching of His word, because He is all-powerful.  I assume you were implying that that request of God meant he couldn't do it Himself. If it isn't an ultimatum, what is it?  You either are, or you aren't.  That's pretty binary.  If you aren't, you shall be denied something. Saying that he is all powerful isn't an answer to the question.  What does his power have to do with humans telling each other he is all powerful?  And why does he need humans to do this?  Why gloat about all this power he has?  To what end?  To give or deny you love?  How is that not an ultimatum?

It's quite literally Him saying "You can either chose to come to me, or, should you dislike me, should you not love me, I will leave you alone"  And that alone-ness (Yes, hell) is what we have asked for.  Its what we wanted.  I'm not saying that, in theology, some people like existing in torment forever, I'm saying that would rather that than God.  Bear in mind, I'm saying this is Christian theology, I'm not saying whether or not its true.  According to it, we get what we want.

Final-Fan said: @ senseinobaka: I think we've gone about as far as we can with only this one passage, and I frankly don't feel like doing the research to expand the debate properly. I believe that puts us in "agree to disagree" territory, for now anyway.

 I agree. But I would look forward to hearing what your research may turn up if you ever do it. I feel that you may be logically stuck on the redundency in the writing instead of really trying to understand what he is saying. It may sound silly in our language, but this is literature that was written almost 2000 years ago in a very different language. This is why I focus so much on the original language.

The natural world disproves the existence of any loving god. If god is all loving all wise and all powerful, why is the natural world the way it is? You can blame man's problems on man, fine, but if God was involved in creating the earth, he would have to be one sick twisted fuck to create a world of never ending fear, pain, death, decay, where for any single creature to live tens if not hundreds have to die. Think about that, in order for one thing to live, it has to take the life of something else. In order for it to continue to live, it must continue to kill. Not just kill, maim, murder, rip the throat out of young innocent weak creatures that die choking on their own blood in agony, wishing some one anyone would save it. If god is loving, powerful and wise he could've created a natural world where every living thing lives in harmony and feeds on sunshine and rainbows. But instead, every living thing lives in fear and pain, trying to survive just one more day at any cost, even if it means feeding off of it's own children. If god created that and said "it is good", he doesn't deserve worship. He deserves to be shot.

If there is any god, it has nothing to do with us, and doesn't resemble any human image of him. Honestly when it comes down to it, weak atheism, or agnosticism seem like the only logical choices. Believing in any man made god is ridiculous for any number of reasons, but when it comes down to it you have to make an illogical assumption one way or another.

There are only two primary configurations for anything. Existence or non-existence. If something exists or existed, it's because there was a cause. If something doesn't exist and never existed it's because of a distinct lack of cause. So the question is, why does a highly ordered universe exist? One of two completely illogical reasons. Either there have always been universes forever and ever without cause, and we live in one that happens to have a set of physical principles that makes life possible. OR illogical option "B" some ambiguous higher intelligence that exists without cause created a highly ordered universe for no discernible or comprehendable reason.

Either way, the Yahweh, JHVH, LORD, ect ect doesn't exist. And if he did, we should all be absolutely terrified that such a sick twisted creature is in control of the earth, and is deciding our fate.

However, I would never try to convince any one that this is true. Richard Dawkins and his ilk writing books like "God the failed hypothesis" and "The God Delusion" are trying to do something terrible and impossible. People believe in god, not because it is something logical that can be argued away, but because it embodies hope. We are animals that have grown to realize we are going to die, and despite all the beauty of life, we have to let go of it. And there will be pain along with the beauty, lots of it. And we need help with that to. To hope is human, and God for so many people just represents hope. What will Richard Dawkins and others arguing against god replace this hope with? Biology? Physics? Economics? Is that enough for people to put faith and hope in? I don't think so. Religion may get in the way of progress, and be used as a tool to create soldiers, but on an individual basis man has yet to come up with a viable alternative. Man isn't ready to get rid of god yet, and I wouldn't ask any individual to do so. Even if I think it's a ridiculous and horrifying idea.

Andir said: Poeta said: But I realize a lot of people here don't want to know anything. Just feel like arguing. For reals Imma stop posting here after this.  ------------------------------------------------------------- "So, if you don't give God your love, then you shall be forced to live an eternity of suffering?  How is this any different than a "need"?  If he doesn't need you to love him, why would you be threatened with eternal damnnation for not doing as your told?  Why does he need to strike fear into you to get what he "wants"?" Ok look at this way. God sets up rules, don't kill, don't steal, don't mistreat your parents. Now you say why should we listen to God when where good well moral people. We can make our own good choices. Jesus one time said "bless is the one who does not know me" In the bible Jesus says thier will be people who will never knew anything about God. So when they die they will be judge on thier actions instead of faith. Now you will go on living your life trying not to do bad things. But were all humans we all do bad things. You've probably done some bad things, for your incovenience, for fun, or because you can. But anyways in the end, is it really that bad to say "You know what I've done some bad things, I feel really bad for doing them" to God? to emptyspace for some. I don't know if you ever felt that feeling in the back of your brain telling you, youve done something wrong. In the end when we die. God judges you and says " Andir!! You have commited Adultery!!! You will go to hell for your sins". God judges me saying "Poeta you have commited murder!!!! But you have repented to me and ask for my forgiviness, actullay lamenting for what you did and your best not to do it againg.. You can proceed to heaven"!!!!! Its not just about giving love to God. hope you understood what I meant.  On the contrary... I think a lot of people here want to know the truth.  Going through life asking if you're doing the right thing is kind of counterproductive, no?  Going through life ignoring the truth and accepting whatever you're told is easy.  And you leave the conversation with your idea of what is right or wrong, ignoring the answer and just accepting God is akin to sticking your fingers in your ear and screaming "I'm not listening."  I don't mean that offensively, but look at it from the perspective of everyone outside the "in" club.  "If you cannot just accept it, you have failed and will never accept it."  At least that's what you're telling me.  Except in this discussion, you're telling me that I will forever be lost because I'm discussing the idea and not getting the answers or proof that is needed.  And why can't I have that proof? ----------------- Why does God need rules?  If he put us on this Earth to live our lives, why does he need/want us to live by these specific rules?  Why must people live by certain rules in order to please God and get accepted?  To me, it sounds like a child setting house rules.  Only I get to play with the red car.  If you play with the red car, you have to leave and never come back.

I don't know what is right or what is wrong, to us only God does.  Andir most atheist don't belive in God because of incovinence. You say we get the "easy" way, since where following something where told. People who do abortion say its "Because we can't afford the baby" "he will be misserable". I don't thing that is the case I thing its because its an incovenience. Andir do you have any pets? Do you take care of them? Do you know anybody who has any pets? Now do you help the poor? donate monthly? weekly? to foundations? If you take care of pets but don't help the poor.(In the eyes of God your already doing wrong) See me I love animals.I can't stand watching a animal suffer. But God tells me I should help people first, then animals second.

"If you cannot just accept it, you have failed and will never accept it."  At least that's what you're telling me."

Edit- No one can fail. If your really really really intesresting, give prayer a try, attend bible studies. Or just read the bible, give it a chance and figure why would God do such things. To me personally (Life is a test, Jesus wasn't here to help people, to help the good ones prevail, to end suffering, world hunger, pain. Jesus was here to save us)

"Except in this discussion, you're telling me that I will forever be lost because I'm discussing the idea and not getting the answers or proof that is needed.  And why can't I have that proof?"

No one is lost everyone can be saved. But let me ask you aquestion.

We can agree God works on mysterious ways. So lets say one day people around you(your family) start praying for you, asking God to give you faith . So one day your driving and BAM! you just went through a terrible accident, and became paralyze from the neck down.  But after the accident, your faith in God becomes strong. For the rest of your life your paralyzed but you belive in God with greath faith.

Now Andir is it unfair? That you had to go through a accident to belive in God (and have eternal life)  Or is it  fair? Since anyone can argue eternity=better than 80+years paralyze. Now thing about it, most people for thier inconvience will say its unfair and that God shoun't do that.

Paul(a person who murder christians, became a beliver after an accident causing him to lose his vision)