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Forums - Gaming Discussion - AMD: PS4 performance advantage over XB1 bigger than many expect thanks to hUMA

Zappykins on 22 August 2013
nightsurge said:

Whoops, double post.

AMD retracted their statements for being inaccurate! Xbox One has same/similar hUMA tech so can we put this thread to rest now?

It's ok, something things are worth saying twice.

Plus, there are so many parrots relentlessly here posting misinformation.  Just look, there will be a HUMA-Gate going forward for a while.



 

Really not sure I see any point of Consol over PC's since Kinect, Wii and other alternative ways to play have been abandoned. 

Top 50 'most fun' game list coming soon!

 

Tell me a funny joke!
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ShinmenTakezo on 22 August 2013
nightsurge said:
ShinmenTakezo said:
nightsurge said:

Called what?

Your posts are all over the place and very confusing...

Either that or maybe you didn't bother to read everything to understand the context. Yeah, I think that might be it.

I'll save you some time though.

When some one posted AMD's "retraction" I commented that people were going to run with that as proof that they were right

Oh the retraction was just one piece of the pie. The fact that there is tons of other evidence supporting that Xbox One had the same/similar technology is overwhelming.

I find it hilarious that you kept calling people out for "listening to the talking heads" or whatnot, yet you jump on ONE tiny, poorly translated statement by someone from AMD.

What exactly do YOU have to try and prove you are right (that PS4 has this unified memory tech and Xbox One doesn't)?

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/191007/inside_the_playstation_4_with_mark_.php

This article is from April. Me, and many others on here it seems listened to Mark Cerny when he spoke. He addresses using edram would have been a complication and a UNIFIED MEMORY SYSTEM is better. That statement he makes tells you that you cannot have hUMA with an edram chip on die. Then there is the fact that AMD confirms this. Then you do a little research on what hUMA is and what it means. Finally you mix in a little logic, and wa-la.

Your tons of evidence comes soley from MS and one "retracted" statement from AMD. Do some research and stop repeating things MS talking heads have been saying. These guys have been lying through their teeth since the reveal, yet you take their word like it's the gospel.



ShinmenTakezo on 22 August 2013
Zappykins said:
tres said:
and why again did microsoft go with amd? but for those that pretty much are ignoring what the o.p. said i will try to explain it. microsoft didnt need to go with huma to do tiled resources because it was made for tiled resources. it all has direct x11.2 to get it done.

And don't forget HyperVisor for other memory swapping. But be careful, some people here just want to stop at the PS4's GPU and not listen to some issues they are having with it.  They just want to swam and glee over each other feeling some artificial superiority; which is clearly empty as they freak out when anything challenges their limited understanding.  They do not understand nor want to know about optimization.  Or the differences between DirectX and OpenGL or any of that sciency stuff.

It's like when they push, push, a movie to make a big splash opening weekend - often because they know it is not any good and will lose audience fast. 

But we shall see in a few months.  Then we can have ice cream and a good laugh.

link please



NoCtiS_NoX on 22 August 2013

Lot's of banning happened here oh my!

OT: I think it's better to wait. It will be yours hands on November.



Adinnieken on 22 August 2013
ShinmenTakezo said:

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/191007/inside_the_playstation_4_with_mark_.php

This article is from April. Me, and many others on here it seems listened to Mark Cerny when he spoke. He addresses using edram would have been a complication and a UNIFIED MEMORY SYSTEM is better. That statement he makes tells you that you cannot have hUMA with an edram chip on die. Then there is the fact that AMD confirms this. Then you do a little research on what hUMA is and what it means. Finally you mix in a little logic, and wa-la.

Your tons of evidence comes soley from MS and one "retracted" statement from AMD. Do some research and stop repeating things MS talking heads have been saying. These guys have been lying through their teeth since the reveal, yet you take their word like it's the gospel.

He said it was a complication, not impossible.  A complication means there is a hill to climb, not an impassible wall.

If you look at the memory diagram that I posted, you could have the DDR memory operating under hUMA and not include the ESRAM.  This would mean the GPU would need to copy any data to the ESRAM or back to the DDR RAM.  Not a big deal, because the ESRAM is reserved for the GPU anyway.  The DDR memory would be unified and accessible to both the CPU and GPU.  Or you could have the hUMA operating on the DDR memory and the ESRAM as two separate memory sets.  The CPU and GPU would still need to copy memory to the ESRAM but the they would be able to access both the ESRAM and the DDR memory and address the same memory space.  The only difference is that the ESRAM would be reserved for graphics only. 

And again.  Microsoft's developer documentation and during the Architectural Panel held during the reveal, Microsoft has said they're using coherent (heterogeneous) memory.  This was confirmed by VGLeaks, this was also confirmed today by XboxOneDev on Reddit (who has been confirmed previously as an Xbox One Developer by the moderators) and lastly it was confirmed by Microsoft back in May during the Architectural Panel by the Distinguished Engineer Console Architect Nick Baker. 

"We have to invest a lot in coherency throughout the chip.  So there's been I/O coherency for a while but we really wanted to get the software out of the mode of managing the caches and put in hardware coherency for the first time on a mass scale in the living room on the GPU."

http://youtu.be/tLBVHZokt1Q?t=22m (Note this is set to the specific time frame that the quote is from.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cache_coherence

And because you don't believe me, here is ARS Technica's article on it:

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/05/microsoft-talks-about-xbox-ones-internals-while-disclosing-nothing/ 

At the end of the day, which this definitely is, the bottom line is that the PS4 is where it was yesterday.  It features hUMA.  The Xbox One also features it, however to what extent, we don't know.  But it is there.  At the end of the day you are wrong on whether or not the Xbox One features heterogeneous unified memory architecture.  It does. 



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nightsurge on 22 August 2013
ShinmenTakezo said:
nightsurge said:

Oh the retraction was just one piece of the pie. The fact that there is tons of other evidence supporting that Xbox One had the same/similar technology is overwhelming.

I find it hilarious that you kept calling people out for "listening to the talking heads" or whatnot, yet you jump on ONE tiny, poorly translated statement by someone from AMD.

What exactly do YOU have to try and prove you are right (that PS4 has this unified memory tech and Xbox One doesn't)?

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/191007/inside_the_playstation_4_with_mark_.php

This article is from April. Me, and many others on here it seems listened to Mark Cerny when he spoke. He addresses using edram would have been a complication and a UNIFIED MEMORY SYSTEM is better. That statement he makes tells you that you cannot have hUMA with an edram chip on die. Then there is the fact that AMD confirms this. Then you do a little research on what hUMA is and what it means. Finally you mix in a little logic, and wa-la.

Your tons of evidence comes soley from MS and one "retracted" statement from AMD. Do some research and stop repeating things MS talking heads have been saying. These guys have been lying through their teeth since the reveal, yet you take their word like it's the gospel.

You do realize the irony in what you keep saying, right?

I bolded it to make it stand out more.

You believe your Sony sources and AMD, but won't believe Microsoft sources and AMD. Is it possible that this is because you only want to believe in your precious PS4? :)

Using eSRAM has NOTHING to do with unified memory system. It is separate entirely. Both the CPU/GPU in both the PS4 and Xbox One have access to the full 8GB of RAM (with MS deciding to split things between OS and Games). The remainder of the "for games" RAM can be accessed from either processor at the same time. The only thing the esRAM does is help move smaller bits of data at extremely fast rates where it makes sense.

Considering that devs have been using eDRAM on 360 for 8+ years now and have had great success with it, I think you will find that Mark Cerny's comments were "PR bullshit" that you and many others keep talking about, and that developers will have no problem using it in their games. Both systems have their benefits and drawbacks, and both companies have very good reasons for their decisions.

You really have to stop being so hypocritical in your posts.



SlayerRondo on 22 August 2013

I guess it comes down to the games and how they look.

The Best of the PS3 easily beat the Xbox 360 in my opinion.



This is the Game of Thrones

Where you either win

or you DIE

ShinmenTakezo on 22 August 2013
nightsurge said:
ShinmenTakezo said:
nightsurge said:

Oh the retraction was just one piece of the pie. The fact that there is tons of other evidence supporting that Xbox One had the same/similar technology is overwhelming.

I find it hilarious that you kept calling people out for "listening to the talking heads" or whatnot, yet you jump on ONE tiny, poorly translated statement by someone from AMD.

What exactly do YOU have to try and prove you are right (that PS4 has this unified memory tech and Xbox One doesn't)?

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/191007/inside_the_playstation_4_with_mark_.php

This article is from April. Me, and many others on here it seems listened to Mark Cerny when he spoke. He addresses using edram would have been a complication and a UNIFIED MEMORY SYSTEM is better. That statement he makes tells you that you cannot have hUMA with an edram chip on die. Then there is the fact that AMD confirms this. Then you do a little research on what hUMA is and what it means. Finally you mix in a little logic, and wa-la.

Your tons of evidence comes soley from MS and one "retracted" statement from AMD. Do some research and stop repeating things MS talking heads have been saying. These guys have been lying through their teeth since the reveal, yet you take their word like it's the gospel.

You do realize the irony in what you keep saying, right?

I bolded it to make it stand out more.

You believe your Sony sources and AMD, but won't believe Microsoft sources and AMD. Is it possible that this is because you only want to believe in your precious PS4? :)

Using eSRAM has NOTHING to do with unified memory system. It is separate entirely. Both the CPU/GPU in both the PS4 and Xbox One have access to the full 8GB of RAM (with MS deciding to split things between OS and Games). The remainder of the "for games" RAM can be accessed from either processor at the same time. The only thing the esRAM does is help move smaller bits of data at extremely fast rates where it makes sense.

Considering that devs have been using eDRAM on 360 for 8+ years now and have had great success with it, I think you will find that Mark Cerny's comments were "PR bullshit" that you and many others keep talking about, and that developers will have no problem using it in their games. Both systems have their benefits and drawbacks, and both companies have very good reasons for their decisions.

You really have to stop being so hypocritical in your posts.


You obviously don't read very well. I underlined it for you. RESEARCH. If Sony says something, I listen then do my own research and come up with my own conclusions. Same with MS. There was absolutely nothing hypocritical in my posts.

If you would have read the article he said using edram is more complicated, a unified memory system is better. That line implies that they are two seperate sytems basically saying you can't have both.

So without doing any research whatsoever you come to the conclusion that Mark Cerny's comments we're PR bullshit based on MS using edram for 8+ years. Do you really not see the flaw in your logic?

You really should stop trying to argue with me. You are using MS talking points, I am using facts backed by my personal research on the subject.



ShinmenTakezo on 22 August 2013
Adinnieken said:
ShinmenTakezo said:

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/191007/inside_the_playstation_4_with_mark_.php

This article is from April. Me, and many others on here it seems listened to Mark Cerny when he spoke. He addresses using edram would have been a complication and a UNIFIED MEMORY SYSTEM is better. That statement he makes tells you that you cannot have hUMA with an edram chip on die. Then there is the fact that AMD confirms this. Then you do a little research on what hUMA is and what it means. Finally you mix in a little logic, and wa-la.

Your tons of evidence comes soley from MS and one "retracted" statement from AMD. Do some research and stop repeating things MS talking heads have been saying. These guys have been lying through their teeth since the reveal, yet you take their word like it's the gospel.

He said it was a complication, not impossible.  A complication means there is a hill to climb, not an impassible wall.

If you look at the memory diagram that I posted, you could have the DDR memory operating under hUMA and not include the ESRAM.  This would mean the GPU would need to copy any data to the ESRAM or back to the DDR RAM.  Not a big deal, because the ESRAM is reserved for the GPU anyway.  The DDR memory would be unified and accessible to both the CPU and GPU.  Or you could have the hUMA operating on the DDR memory and the ESRAM as two separate memory sets.  The CPU and GPU would still need to copy memory to the ESRAM but the they would be able to access both the ESRAM and the DDR memory and address the same memory space.  The only difference is that the ESRAM would be reserved for graphics only. 

And again.  Microsoft's developer documentation and during the Architectural Panel held during the reveal, Microsoft has said they're using coherent (heterogeneous) memory.  This was confirmed by VGLeaks, this was also confirmed today by XboxOneDev on Reddit (who has been confirmed previously as an Xbox One Developer by the moderators) and lastly it was confirmed by Microsoft back in May during the Architectural Panel by the Distinguished Engineer Console Architect Nick Baker. 

"We have to invest a lot in coherency throughout the chip.  So there's been I/O coherency for a while but we really wanted to get the software out of the mode of managing the caches and put in hardware coherency for the first time on a mass scale in the living room on the GPU."

http://youtu.be/tLBVHZokt1Q?t=22m (Note this is set to the specific time frame that the quote is from.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cache_coherence

And because you don't believe me, here is ARS Technica's article on it:

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/05/microsoft-talks-about-xbox-ones-internals-while-disclosing-nothing/ 

At the end of the day, which this definitely is, the bottom line is that the PS4 is where it was yesterday.  It features hUMA.  The Xbox One also features it, however to what extent, we don't know.  But it is there.  At the end of the day you are wrong on whether or not the Xbox One features heterogeneous unified memory architecture.  It does. 

He didn't say it was a complication, he said it would make development more complicated then said that is why we went with a unified system architecture. That means the two are seperate.

Again you are quoting MS talking heads instead of doing research. Of course MS is going to say we have that too. They obviously have no qualms blatantly lying to the public.

The One doesn't and can't have hUMA. Sorry to burstyour bubble.

I seriously wish there were more tech heads on here to let these people know whats up. I'm not a tech head, but I at least do reasearch so I'm not pulling shit out of my ass or repeating corporate lies.



nightsurge on 22 August 2013
ShinmenTakezo said:
Adinnieken said:
ShinmenTakezo said:

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/191007/inside_the_playstation_4_with_mark_.php

This article is from April. Me, and many others on here it seems listened to Mark Cerny when he spoke. He addresses using edram would have been a complication and a UNIFIED MEMORY SYSTEM is better. That statement he makes tells you that you cannot have hUMA with an edram chip on die. Then there is the fact that AMD confirms this. Then you do a little research on what hUMA is and what it means. Finally you mix in a little logic, and wa-la.

Your tons of evidence comes soley from MS and one "retracted" statement from AMD. Do some research and stop repeating things MS talking heads have been saying. These guys have been lying through their teeth since the reveal, yet you take their word like it's the gospel.

He said it was a complication, not impossible.  A complication means there is a hill to climb, not an impassible wall.

If you look at the memory diagram that I posted, you could have the DDR memory operating under hUMA and not include the ESRAM.  This would mean the GPU would need to copy any data to the ESRAM or back to the DDR RAM.  Not a big deal, because the ESRAM is reserved for the GPU anyway.  The DDR memory would be unified and accessible to both the CPU and GPU.  Or you could have the hUMA operating on the DDR memory and the ESRAM as two separate memory sets.  The CPU and GPU would still need to copy memory to the ESRAM but the they would be able to access both the ESRAM and the DDR memory and address the same memory space.  The only difference is that the ESRAM would be reserved for graphics only. 

And again.  Microsoft's developer documentation and during the Architectural Panel held during the reveal, Microsoft has said they're using coherent (heterogeneous) memory.  This was confirmed by VGLeaks, this was also confirmed today by XboxOneDev on Reddit (who has been confirmed previously as an Xbox One Developer by the moderators) and lastly it was confirmed by Microsoft back in May during the Architectural Panel by the Distinguished Engineer Console Architect Nick Baker. 

"We have to invest a lot in coherency throughout the chip.  So there's been I/O coherency for a while but we really wanted to get the software out of the mode of managing the caches and put in hardware coherency for the first time on a mass scale in the living room on the GPU."

http://youtu.be/tLBVHZokt1Q?t=22m (Note this is set to the specific time frame that the quote is from.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cache_coherence

And because you don't believe me, here is ARS Technica's article on it:

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/05/microsoft-talks-about-xbox-ones-internals-while-disclosing-nothing/ 

At the end of the day, which this definitely is, the bottom line is that the PS4 is where it was yesterday.  It features hUMA.  The Xbox One also features it, however to what extent, we don't know.  But it is there.  At the end of the day you are wrong on whether or not the Xbox One features heterogeneous unified memory architecture.  It does. 

He didn't say it was a complication, he said it would make development more complicated then said that is why we went with a unified system architecture. That means the two are seperate.

Again you are quoting MS talking heads instead of doing research. Of course MS is going to say we have that too. They obviously have no qualms blatantly lying to the public.

The One doesn't and can't have hUMA. Sorry to burstyour bubble.

I seriously wish there were more tech heads on here to let these people know whats up. I'm not a tech head, but I at least do reasearch so I'm not pulling shit out of my ass or repeating corporate lies.

You are just so completely wrong... You will never learn. And for all your fake "research" you keep claiming to do, you will never accept the countless data we show you that completely refutes your "I do my own magical fake make believe unicorn research and it says PS4 is dah betterz! YAR!"...

Seriously, you need to give this a rest.

You refer to tech heads, I am one of those. I am not as advanced as someone on here that claimed to be a silicon engineer or whatnot, but I do have my bachelor's in computer science which required many courses on hardware architecture and obviously a ton of programming classes from Java to C++ to Assembly. I have built OS's and emulators of microprocessors....