You're usually so smart. Did you read the thread?

I didn't read the whole thing, because I saw how the debate was going, and felt that, if someone had made a relevant point that mattered, I'd have seen a comment about it on skimming.

I went back and read all of your posts, particularly (at least, all of them up to a point), and I saw nothing that challenges what I said. You dismiss logic - you can use fancy phrases like "pre-supposed logic", but it comes down to exactly the same problem.

Let me address a specific point that you made - if god can have foreknowledge of an event happening, then that even must necessarily have been pre-determined. Otherwise, it would be possible for the event to not occur, and thus the foreknowledge to be wrong. So you have four choices if we assume that god exists:

1. There is no such thing as foreknowledge. (no omniscience)

2. Everything is predetermined. (no free will)

3. God gets it wrong sometimes. (no infallibility)

4. God intentionally ignores his own foreknowledge (willful ignorance)

Personally, if I were a religious person, I wouldn't like any of those possibilities.

So what you're saying is there's a chance George McFly wasn't murdered by Biff in another universe??

@wick. Exactly. You're the only one to have figured it out too.

Okay, read back your first post and realize we're far from just blindly accepting what's given. I'm asking questions and challenging the doctrine as well as the challenges to the doctrine, trying to piece things together logically, but not limiting myself to pre-set understandings of how it should work.

Now to your question. If an event could possibly not occur, then it would mean that it was not part of reality, hence that it was not something in God's foreknowledge (he has foreknowledge of things that happen, by definition). His foreknowledge doesn't require it to be pre-determined, since pre-determination involves a lack of free will. So God's foreknowledge must be of another type (non deterministically discovered). My proposition was that God was actually unable to pre-determine our choices at time 0, but that he was able to know them regardless at time 0 because he was present at time tx before it came to pass in untranscended time (regular time, ie human time).

if god knows everything(your path or not) is an irrelevant question.

the real question is if we could go back in time and live our lives again would have everything happen exactly like in the present now. i dont think so. quantum physics theaches us that the smalles particles that we are made of have no pre determined path. everything could have happend so in a way we have free will if this is correct.

If god was unable to pre-determine choices, but was able to know them, then that means god isn't omnipotent. Why? Because if he was unable to pre-determine the choices, that would mean that he would not be able to tweak his choice of creation events to prevent the choices from doing what he didn't want them to do - you know, like the choice to eat the forbidden fruit. If he was omniscient enough to know what his own choices would result in, then either he meant for everything to happen, in which case the so-called "free will" is really just god lining things up to give the illusion of free will, or he was incapable of affecting things, and thus isn't omnipotent. There's really no way to invoke some special form of logic to make it consistent, outside of something that isn't actually logic.

Basically, the only argument I see here is that God defies logic so there is no point in making sense of the issue.  Okay, fair enough.  Doesn't make it true, but how can one argue with logic against an argument that's based on the principal of logic not applying to God's omniscience?

But you then try to make sense of it by saying that he doesn't need to know how or what led us to the choice we make while in the very same sentence stating that he is omniscient.  That, in itself, is a contradiction.  You can't be omniscient only for the end product of our choices but not the choices themselves.  Omniscient means all knowing, not knowing of just a certain part but not why it happened.  Logic or not, you are using the word wrong if you define it as anythiing else than ALL KNOWING.

If I were you, I would have stopped at the argument that God defies logic.  Sure it doesn't have any proof and can't be explained, but if that premise were you're argument, debating it with logic would be pretty senseless.

The devil did know. Just like the devil knows it will be thrown into the lake of fire. It knows that GOD will always win. It knows the anti will never have the power jesus has. The devil just don't care.


The devil want its own followers. Look at all the star tattoos people are getting.