By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - General Discussion - Mind-blow: Our choices are not pre-determined, but God knows

 

Did you find this enlightening?

Yes 13 20.63%
 
No 50 79.37%
 
Total:63

Predeterminism doesn't imply influence. It simply implies knowledge.

Thus you have defeated your own argument.



Around the Network
dsgrue3 said:
Predeterminism doesn't imply influence. It simply implies knowledge.

Thus you have defeated your own argument.

He knows, not because he could predict it, but because he was there when it happened, before it happened.

Thus nothing is defeated. You'd have to read my other posts where I mentioned this more than once.

There is no predeterminism in the bible, he just knows and we have free will to choose, and we will all be without excuse (that's in the bible).

It also says (Jesus) "Before Abraham was, I am". In other words, he was there before it all began.



happydolphin said:

I am not arguing that he is not almighty, but simply that if he created us with free-will, then it is purely impossible for Him to control any outcome but his own (for instance, sending Jesus), that does not make him not almighty, since no matter what we do, he will always be able to surpass it. He is not able to control us, because he decided not to be able to, in order to give us free will. It was his own design.

So if I force myself to not be able to control something, does that make me not almighty?


It does not matter whether God is controlling our actions though. If you asked him, "Will I enter heaven in my afterlife?" and his answer is "I don't know yet.", then he is not all-knowing. His knowledge would be expanding, which is supposed to be impossible for an almighty being.



happydolphin said:
dsgrue3 said:
Predeterminism doesn't imply influence. It simply implies knowledge.

Thus you have defeated your own argument.

He knows, not because he could predict it, but because he was there when it happened, before it happened.

Thus nothing is defeated. You'd have to read my other posts where I mentioned this more than once.

There is no predeterminism in the bible, he just knows and we have free will to choose, and we will all be without excuse (that's in the bible).

It also says (Jesus) "Before Abraham was, I am". In other words, he was there before it all began.

Predeterminism isn't about prediction, it's about knowledge. It's a certainty given a certain set of events. 

Now you're saying there isn't predeterminism, but that's exactly what foreknowledge is. 

So either you're saying he isn't omniscient, or we don't have free will. You need to pick a side; you seem to misunderstand that there are logical contradictions between these abstractions.



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
happydolphin said:

I am not arguing that he is not almighty, but simply that if he created us with free-will, then it is purely impossible for Him to control any outcome but his own (for instance, sending Jesus), that does not make him not almighty, since no matter what we do, he will always be able to surpass it. He is not able to control us, because he decided not to be able to, in order to give us free will. It was his own design.

So if I force myself to not be able to control something, does that make me not almighty?


It does not matter whether God is controlling our actions though. If you asked him, "Will I enter heaven in my afterlife?" and his answer is "I don't know yet.", then he is not all-knowing. His knowledge would be expanding, which is supposed to be impossible for an almighty being.

He knows the1. He knows before it happens who's going to heaven and who is not, by their own free will.



Around the Network
dsgrue3 said:

Predeterminism isn't about prediction, it's about knowledge. It's a certainty given a certain set of events. 

Now you're saying there isn't predeterminism, but that's exactly what foreknowledge is. 

So either you're saying he isn't omniscient, or we don't have free will. You need to pick a side; you seem to misunderstand that there are logical contradictions between these abstractions.

This is exactly the kind of thinking that is the trap in this theology.

Foreknowledge is foreknowledge, whether something can be predetermined (or predicted if you prefer) or not. That's the whole revelation.

That is what the logic hinges on, the fact that foreknowledge does NOT require predeterminism, because actually it just doesn't. Foreknowledge in and of itself doesn't require the ability to predict if the being that has the foreknowledge can, for example, be unbound by time.



happydolphin said:
dsgrue3 said:

Predeterminism isn't about prediction, it's about knowledge. It's a certainty given a certain set of events. 

Now you're saying there isn't predeterminism, but that's exactly what foreknowledge is. 

So either you're saying he isn't omniscient, or we don't have free will. You need to pick a side; you seem to misunderstand that there are logical contradictions between these abstractions.

This is exactly the kind of thinking that is the trap in this theology.

Foreknowledge is foreknowledge, whether something can be predetermined (or predicted if you prefer) or not. That's the whole revelation.

That is what the logic hinges on, the fact that foreknowledge does NOT require predeterminism, because actually it just doesn't. Foreknowledge in and of itself doesn't require the ability to predict if the being that has the foreknowledge can, for example, be unbound by time.

Actually it does.

predetermined  past participle, past tense of pre·de·ter·mine (Verb)

Verb

Establish or decide in advance.

Predestine (an outcome or course of events).

fore·knowl·edge  
/fôrˈnäləj/
Noun
Awareness of something before it happens or exists.

The terms are nearly identical. Not sure which definition you're reading...



dsgrue3 said:

Actually it does.

predetermined  past participle, past tense of pre·de·ter·mine (Verb)

Verb

Establish or decide in advance.

Predestine (an outcome or course of events).

fore·knowl·edge  
/fôrˈnäləj/
Noun
Awareness of something before it happens or exists.

The terms are nearly identical. Not sure which definition you're reading...

They are utterly different. I'm reading both.

In one case, God establishes a course in advance => Predeterminism.

In the other, he knows something before it happens (which is exactly what I said) => Foreknowledge.

 

He can have foreknowledge without establishing the course, but just by knowing. The biblical example I gave was if he was unbound by time, which happens to be the only logical explanation of him knowing without predicting it.

Matter of fact, since we have free will, it is impossible to predict our actions in advance. Simply put.



The problem is people think it matters whether we have free will or not; if the future is set in stone or not. For obvious reasons they believe a lack of free will lessens the value of their choices.

There is no real world difference though.



happydolphin said:

They are utterly different. I'm reading both.

In one case, God establishes a course in advance => Predeterminism.

In the other, he knows something before it happens (which is exactly what I said) => Foreknowledge.

 

He can have foreknowledge without establishing the course, but just by knowing. The biblical example I gave was if he was unbound by time, which happens to be the only logical explanation of him knowing without predicting it.

Matter of fact, since we have free will, it is impossible to predict our actions in advance. Simply put.

It says "establish in advance." If one is aware in advance, one has established the outcomes in advance. They are set in stone and not subject to change. 

This is predeterminism.