@wick. Exactly. You're the only one to have figured it out too. 
| Aielyn said:
I didn't read the whole thing, because I saw how the debate was going, and felt that, if someone had made a relevant point that mattered, I'd have seen a comment about it on skimming. I went back and read all of your posts, particularly (at least, all of them up to a point), and I saw nothing that challenges what I said. You dismiss logic - you can use fancy phrases like "pre-supposed logic", but it comes down to exactly the same problem. Let me address a specific point that you made - if god can have foreknowledge of an event happening, then that even must necessarily have been pre-determined. Otherwise, it would be possible for the event to not occur, and thus the foreknowledge to be wrong. So you have four choices if we assume that god exists: 1. There is no such thing as foreknowledge. (no omniscience) 2. Everything is predetermined. (no free will) 3. God gets it wrong sometimes. (no infallibility) 4. God intentionally ignores his own foreknowledge (willful ignorance) Personally, if I were a religious person, I wouldn't like any of those possibilities. |
Okay, read back your first post and realize we're far from just blindly accepting what's given. I'm asking questions and challenging the doctrine as well as the challenges to the doctrine, trying to piece things together logically, but not limiting myself to pre-set understandings of how it should work.
Now to your question. If an event could possibly not occur, then it would mean that it was not part of reality, hence that it was not something in God's foreknowledge (he has foreknowledge of things that happen, by definition). His foreknowledge doesn't require it to be pre-determined, since pre-determination involves a lack of free will. So God's foreknowledge must be of another type (non deterministically discovered). My proposition was that God was actually unable to pre-determine our choices at time 0, but that he was able to know them regardless at time 0 because he was present at time tx before it came to pass in untranscended time (regular time, ie human time).
