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Forums - Sony Discussion - Naughty Dog: Ellie’s Popularity in The Last of Us “Says a lot About Whether Games can Sell With a Female Protagonist” *spoilers*

S.T.A.G.E. said:
wilco said:
MohammadBadir said:
....didn't Samus already prove this?


No, it didn't. and neither does TLOU.

Really?....So you could never see Ellie being the lead character of the Last of Us franchise?

Thats not really the point I'm making...All I am saying is that TLOU's success does not prove that female protagonists sell. Ellie is not the main character and ND even stated that she is not playable. If the fact that she is playable was a selling point then they would have put that in the marketing ahead of time.

This is not to say that gamers won't buy a game with a female protagonist, just that TLOU is not a great example. At the end of the day the Last of Us is still the same Grizzled Old Man/Innocent little girl trope we've seen before.

To answer your original question. I do not see Ellie being a lead character. I loved TLOU and I loved the character of Ellie but she only works in the context of the Joel story. In her current state shes just a tool and not a lead character, maybe her character could mature and become a viable lead in the future but the problem with that is TLOU does NOT need a sequel. This is one case where a sequel really can ruin the original.



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wilco said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
wilco said:
MohammadBadir said:
....didn't Samus already prove this?


No, it didn't. and neither does TLOU.

Really?....So you could never see Ellie being the lead character of the Last of Us franchise?

Thats not really the point I'm making...All I am saying is that TLOU's success does not prove that female protagonists sell. Ellie is not the main character and ND even stated that she is not playable. If the fact that she is playable was a selling point then they would have put that in the marketing ahead of time.

This is not to say that gamers won't buy a game with a female protagonist, just that TLOU is not a great example. At the end of the day the Last of Us is still the same Grizzled Old Man/Innocent little girl trope we've seen before.

To answer your original question. I do not see Ellie being a lead character. I loved TLOU and I loved the character of Ellie but she only works in the context of the Joel story. In her current state shes just a tool and not a lead character, maybe her character could mature and become a viable lead in the future but the problem with that is TLOU does NOT need a sequel. This is one case where a sequel really can ruin the original.

How many games are doing what the Last of Us have done in the way in which it was done?
There are two main characters in the game and one goes missing for quite a while but a certain someone has to learn to survive on her own for quite a bit in the game to the point to where you forget about Joel. Joels role in the game is to keep her safe but the game begs for you to question...how long can he save her before he kicks the bucket? The way he protects the girl from using weapons until he realizes shes a good shot and shes a wild striker at that. When she becomes a woman, shes going to be a hell cat after how joel raised her. Instead of being a brat he's turning her into a survivalist, showing her hot to shoot, create weapons, make food, etc. The list goes on and on. Its obvious shes being prepped to be a lead character. She doesnt need to be now.

Ellie as a character 1/4 of the way through kills on her own. She needs Joel at this point for back up and emotional father issues, but how long will Joel survive? This guy neary died completely and shes kept him alive just long enough. This girl is going to become something special, just watch. Yes, 

As for the sequel, if you dont believe TLOU doesn't need a sequel you must've forgotten the ending was rather anti-climatic and if you've ever watched a series on HBO or any other channel they seem to have learned the lesson of how to keep the viewer hooked. They never finished the story and never found a group of people who could make an anti-virus from her blood without killing her. There is still some way to go.. Her purpose has not been met. Shes has more story and a far bigger purpose than you are willing to admit.



It's interesting to see how gaming "journalists", fans of the game and now even the developer want the rest of the world make believe that TLOU is such a critical and commercial success due to minor reasons (usually the story is named, in this case it's the "hiding" of the female protagonist - how pathetic is that) instead of admitting that the true and simple selling point for TLOU is the same as for most others of those many mid-level and few high-level sales successes on Sony and MS consoles: violence.



Ellie was an amazing well developed character and seeing her various moods and develop to culminate in the amazing section in Winter with her is what put the game from great to that upper echelon of games this generation for me.

I am so glad I knew next to nothing going into this experience so it surprised me multiple times.



okr said:
It's interesting to see how gaming "journalists", fans of the game and now even the developer want the rest of the world make believe that TLOU is such a critical and commercial success due to minor reasons (usually the story is named, in this case it's the "hiding" of the female protagonist - how pathetic is that) instead of admitting that the true and simple selling point for TLOU is the same as for most others of those many mid-level and few high-level sales successes on Sony and MS consoles: violence.

Too harsh my friend. 

OT: I don't know anyone who refuses to play games based on the gender of protagonist. I mean did anyone just say no to portal?



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the-pi-guy said:
Augen said:
Ellie was an amazing well developed character and seeing her various moods and develop to culminate in the amazing section in Winter with her is what put the game from great to that upper echelon of games this generation for me.

I am so glad I knew next to nothing going into this experience so it surprised me multiple times.

Absolutely agree, just playing through the game, she's a great character then you add the optional conversations and she becomes an amazing character that I love like I thought I never would in any genre.  It is amazing to play as her, she feels very different from Joel.  It feels like a struggle, one that obviously impacts her and even the player.  It's amazing, simply put.

The fact that it translates to the mechanics as well is brilliant.  With Joel I did a lot of wait and meelee attacks with bricks and weapons.  Ellie made you realize how scarey the world was a conforntation rarely ended well.  Having to go with stealth and traps and sniping guys gave a completely different feel.  You were part bad ass and part terrified.  

Honestly at first I worried abouth her, but by the end I was cheering for her and genuinely cared about her.  When she gets surprised late at one point I screamed in my living room "Ellie! No!!" and unloaded my gun excessively to save her.  It ceased being a game in that moment, had no idea how much it affected me and testiment to the characters and storey telling.



the-pi-guy said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:

A lot of people loved the ending because it was ambiguous.  If they decide not to do another story with Joel and/or Ellie, I'm fine with that and a lot of people are actually asking for that.  For some people the best part of the ending was that it was ambiguous.  They didn't give you all the answers, it was something you had to piece together, something that you had to build on yourself.  

Many people seem to dislike the ending because it felt incomplete to them, but I think that it was one of the strong suits of the story.  It wasn't just "I'm done with this game now, no more."  It put me in a place where during the credits, I started to think about it.  I've never thought about a story after it was finished before, either because they never impacted me or because they were already explained.  


While noted, the ending really was leading to a second part as in the end of a season. They do the same thing on most tv shows now. They leave you without an answer to most of your questions but at least an end to the main villain at the conclusion of the first season and then leave a statement to tease the next season. 

The ending was incomplete but with good purpose. Expect another game in the next two years.

If you think about it the duration of The Last of Us was equivalent to a 15-17 episode season. 



MohammadBadir said:
....didn't Samus already prove this?

Back in 1986 no less.



RolStoppable said:
green_sky said:
okr said:
It's interesting to see how gaming "journalists", fans of the game and now even the developer want the rest of the world make believe that TLOU is such a critical and commercial success due to minor reasons (usually the story is named, in this case it's the "hiding" of the female protagonist - how pathetic is that) instead of admitting that the true and simple selling point for TLOU is the same as for most others of those many mid-level and few high-level sales successes on Sony and MS consoles: violence.

Too harsh my friend. 

Nah, at E3 2012 the demonstration ended with a close up headshot and Jack Tretton said "a mindblowing experience" with a grin on his face.

 "The true and simple selling point for TLOU is the violence." Well wasn't for me but i can't speak for everyone. People choose similar things for different reasons. I actively went out of my way to avoid combat in this game as it just felt much more repulsive than compared to other M rated games. Again not disagreeing with Okr but just saying the generalizations don't always have to be there when trying to make sense of consumer psychology. 

Again the news in OT is bit silly but as explained it in more in regards to the Bioshock Infinite box art story. 



wait wasn't Clair and Jill protagonists in RE? A similarly violent kinda shindig that sold. Mass Effect (and a whole lot of WRPG's), Heavy Rain had Maddison, Lightning ofcourse was a shared protagonist with everyone but actually marketed with her. There's a lot of games with shared playable female protagonists that sell.

Games with Sole female Protagonists I can think of off the top of my head push the issue more because you can't market it with a guy. Sole to me would matter more for proving the point. Rather than sidekick or shared protagonist.

Longest Journey (April Ryan and didn't sell that well because its an adventure game).
Tomb Raider (Partly doesn't count because of her overt boobiness, new one counts for sure)
Metroid (Kinda doesn't really count because she wasn't really marketed as a girl, except for in Other M, but that's good in some ways because she is a girl, and not marketed as a girl)
No One Lives Forever
Remember Me (didn't sell)
Heavenly Sword (Kinda Sold, but not exactly BUT HAD ANNA TORV FROM FRINGE!)

I'm just making a list for people to ignore