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Forums - Microsoft - Cloud Computing - Xbox One developers team up with NASA to simulate 35 thousand light years of space

Netyaroze on 18 June 2013
Machiavellian said:
ethomaz said:
The latency of Cloud is the biggest issue for the games tasks...

What you can do in Cloud for games (some example to understand):

+ AI non-reactive (any AI calc not interfered by real-time actions with immediate response... aka AI not processed between frame sequences... eg. AI in RTS games)
+ Open World climate/environment variations (eg. environmental lighting, rain, wind, etc)

What you can do in Cloud for games (some example to understand):

- Any type of graphic/render task (well every frame a frame processing)
- AI reactive (any type of AI that have reactive changes in milliseconds)
- Gameplay physics (there are little exceptions)

There are lot of more example... in any case little processing can be made on Cloud for games even so you need to have a backup in console in the case of internet issues in the middle of gameplay.

A good example are the MMOs... they are all Cloud based... and every MMO player here knows all the problems that happened with low latency and internet issues.

MS is trying to make all your offline experience like a MMO experience... SinCity was the latest example of a offline game using Cloud processing

whats to stop MS from using the cloud as the game processing engine and stream the content as video.  As stated this is what Gaikai does now and the technology can be done using MS Cloud compute as well.  As I stated the difference is that MS solution can alter the output to use more advance graphical techniques which would allow for a much better video presentation.

MS is trying to make all your offline experience like a MMO experience... SinCity was the latest example of a offline game using Cloud processing

Simcity did not use Azure for their cloud services either.  Difference is that MS has a policy for 100% up time for Azure applications.  Maybe next time SimCiy will use Azure to avoid such situations that they experienced.

A good example are the MMOs... they are all Cloud based... and every MMO player here knows all the problems that happened with low latency and internet issues.

MMO, Multiplayer games, social network you name it, they are all effected by internet issues but million of people play those games because of the experience.  The same issues that will effect Sony Gaikai will also be the issue but I am sure millions of people will play it as well if the experience is good.

MS is building a solution for today and the future and its moving to get all that in place now instead of waiting until all the planets are aligned.


SimCIty should use Azure you say ? But what has Simcity done that could not have been done offline with optional online multiplayer ? Why would they need Azure or any online requirement at all. 



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psrock on 18 June 2013
Machiavellian said:
ethomaz said:
The latency of Cloud is the biggest issue for the games tasks...

What you can do in Cloud for games (some example to understand):

+ AI non-reactive (any AI calc not interfered by real-time actions with immediate response... aka AI not processed between frame sequences... eg. AI in RTS games)
+ Open World climate/environment variations (eg. environmental lighting, rain, wind, etc)

What you can do in Cloud for games (some example to understand):

- Any type of graphic/render task (well every frame a frame processing)
- AI reactive (any type of AI that have reactive changes in milliseconds)
- Gameplay physics (there are little exceptions)

There are lot of more example... in any case little processing can be made on Cloud for games even so you need to have a backup in console in the case of internet issues in the middle of gameplay.

A good example are the MMOs... they are all Cloud based... and every MMO player here knows all the problems that happened with low latency and internet issues.

MS is trying to make all your offline experience like a MMO experience... SinCity was the latest example of a offline game using Cloud processing

whats to stop MS from using the cloud as the game processing engine and stream the content as video.  As stated this is what Gaikai does now and the technology can be done using MS Cloud compute as well.  As I stated the difference is that MS solution can alter the output to use more advance graphical techniques which would allow for a much better video presentation.

MS is trying to make all your offline experience like a MMO experience... SinCity was the latest example of a offline game using Cloud processing

Simcity did not use Azure for their cloud services either.  Difference is that MS has a policy for 100% up time for Azure applications.  Maybe next time SimCiy will use Azure to avoid such situations that they experienced.

A good example are the MMOs... they are all Cloud based... and every MMO player here knows all the problems that happened with low latency and internet issues.

MMO, Multiplayer games, social network you name it, they are all effected by internet issues but million of people play those games because of the experience.  The same issues that will effect Sony Gaikai will also be the issue but I am sure millions of people will play it as well if the experience is good.

MS is building a solution for today and the future and its moving to get all that in place now instead of waiting until all the planets are aligned.

Once again, MS is not doing anything new, they have made it standards because they have to in order to compete. And just like MS is building and moving foward i expect Sony to do it too. SOE is known for huge MMO on the PC side, they have cloud computing. 



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11/20/09 04:25 makingmusic476 Warning Other (Your avatar is borderline NSFW. Please keep it for as long as possible.)
SvennoJ on 18 June 2013

It's very cool being able to keep track of all that space in real time, but is it a noticeable benefit for a game?
Consider Frontier first encounters from 1995, 2mb game running on 486 hardware, with our solar system and nearby star systems correctly mapped plus millions of other unique star systems to visit. http://www.jongware.com/galaxy1.html Perfectly sold the illusion of the whole milky way at your fingertips to me.
Try it for yourself no cloud needed: http://www.myabandonware.com/game/frontier-first-encounters-2b2

This is fun for now too, convincing enough for me. Fun watching what happens when a black hole comes to close to our solar system. http://universesandbox.com/
It wouldn't work in the cloud unless you send a rendered image back, not enough bandwidth to relay the position of 10's of thousands of objects in real time. 10k objects at 30 fps already exceeds 27mbps.

Though maybe it can fix eve online's massive space battles, that would be good.



ethomaz on 18 June 2013

Machiavellian said:

whats to stop MS from using the cloud as the game processing engine and stream the content as video.  As stated this is what Gaikai does now and the technology can be done using MS Cloud compute as well.  As I stated the difference is that MS solution can alter the output to use more advance graphical techniques which would allow for a much better video presentation.

MS is trying to make all your offline experience like a MMO experience... SinCity was the latest example of a offline game using Cloud processing

Simcity did not use Azure for their cloud services either.  Difference is that MS has a policy for 100% up time for Azure applications.  Maybe next time SimCiy will use Azure to avoid such situations that they experienced.

A good example are the MMOs... they are all Cloud based... and every MMO player here knows all the problems that happened with low latency and internet issues.

MMO, Multiplayer games, social network you name it, they are all effected by internet issues but million of people play those games because of the experience.  The same issues that will effect Sony Gaikai will also be the issue but I am sure millions of people will play it as well if the experience is good.

MS is building a solution for today and the future and its moving to get all that in place now instead of waiting until all the planets are aligned.

1) The streaming games are 720p@30fps due internet restrictions... to 1080p@60fps you will need a internet that 99% of the users in the world haven't yet.

2) The issue with Cloud computing never was the server... I said Azure can have billions servers but your internet won't change.

3) Every Cloud based service is affect by internet... you know... interct have high latencies... every online game sufers with latencies issues everytime.

I think you are confusing what I was saying.

PS. MS already said every Cloud based game will works without internet WITHOUT CLOUD... the exceptio is for the online multiplayer.



superchunk on 18 June 2013

This is MS setting itself up for not needing new hardware... at least not uber powerful hardware.

They'd be able to focus on minor changes maybe just in appearance and solely focus on software upgrades.

Not a bad plan really. It would dramatically cut down on the barrier of entry for new gamers. No longer need $500 hardware. $99 "Xbox" in 5 years will be more than enough.

Of course then DRM will be a thing of a past too as its fully digital distribution.

Just takes the PR fail now and dramatic changes to get to the point in 5years where it won't matter to anyone.



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Machiavellian on 18 June 2013
ethomaz said:

Machiavellian said:

As stated, you can actually google about using Azure to do raytrace work or other graphical intensive work.  I use Pixar as an example of the work that can be done in the cloud for graphics.  Also what you forget is that MS can easily scale the output to the conditions of the work needed.  In other words they can scale the graphics to go untra deep for making a movie like UP or they can scale down the rendering for making scenes for a game which would not need as much graphical grunt.  This is the flexibiliy of MS cloud solution which gives it a huge advantage in doing stuff of this nature.

What you did not understand from what I stated is that MS can do EXACTLY what GaiKai do but it can ALTER the rendering engine of a game to do more intensive graphical features like Raytrace.  The data would be compressed into a video stream and send it to the client machine.  This can be done today and it has been done.

No. MS can't... they have one limitation... Internet... that won't change even if MS put 1 trillion servers to run.

The quality of Gaikai for stream graphcs is way below a console render... you can do that but the result won't have the same graphical level than rendering in real-time in your console.

A constant 5Mbps internet connection can't hold a 720p@30fps streeming game with a hell of compreension * you know video compreension means less quality? *.

Again Internet won't change even MS create a pool of zillions of servers.

You keep talking about the internet being the limitation but why does Online and Gaikai work???  You make a statement as if conditions are set in stone.  You make assumptions while dismissing this demo MS just did which the OP mention.

The reason Gaikai is low is because they do not have the infrastucture to scale the game better than medium settings on a decent PC.  Gaikai runs the game just like you would run it on your home PC with the equipment you have.  GaiKai send you the video of that setup and the reason the game does not look like a top end PC is because they are not running top end PC settings.

MS Cloud compute is not constrained by this limitation because MS cloud compute does not run a game instance but instead runs the game code.  MS cloud compute can off load the rendering pipeline of the game to the cloud and process that data using different rendering techniques and steam that data back to the client using H264 or any other video compression scheme.  

Its not the vidoe compression thats the problem with Giakai, its that the games are running at Medium to low PC settings and the quality of that image is the result.



ethomaz on 18 June 2013
SvennoJ said:
Though maybe it can fix eve online's massive space battles, that would be good.

Eve is already a clould based game



Machiavellian on 18 June 2013
Netyaroze said:


SimCIty should use Azure you say ? But what has Simcity done that could not have been done offline with optional online multiplayer ? Why would they need Azure or any online requirement at all. 

What I was stating is that all the online problems SimCity experience were due to not having enough servers to process the data being sent by all the people buying the game and playing it. If the publisher used Azure, then Azure would have turned on more resources as the load increase for the game so there would not have been any downtime.  Ubi does not have anything near like Azure to handle such a load and this is the reason they experience all the problems.

As for what SimCity do that cannot be down offline, I have no ideal, never played the game.



ethomaz on 18 June 2013

Machiavellian said:

You keep talking about the internet being the limitation but why does Online and Gaikai work???  You make a statement as if conditions are set in stone.  You make assumptions while dismissing this demo MS just did which the OP mention.

The reason Gaikai is low is because they do not have the infrastucture to scale the game better than medium settings on a decent PC.  Gaikai runs the game just like you would run it on your home PC with the equipment you have.  GaiKai send you the video of that setup and the reason the game does not look like a top end PC is because they are not running top end PC settings.

MS Cloud compute is not constrained by this limitation because MS cloud compute does not run a game instance but instead runs the game code.  MS cloud compute can off load the rendering pipeline of the game to the cloud and process that data using different rendering techniques and steam that data back to the client using H264 or any other video compression scheme.

Its not the vidoe compression thats the problem with Giakai, its that the games are running at Medium to low PC settings and the quality of that image is the result.

Did you already used OnLive or Gaikai?

Due internet connecting bandwidth the OnLive stream servicres gest at maximum 720p@30fps quality.

I tell you gain... the maximum quality setthing for OnLive streaming is 720p@30fps.

That's because the server can't run the game at 1080p or more? No it is because the INTERNECT bandwidth can't streaming suck high quality.

Netflix have streaming issues due internet issues (not server issues).



Machiavellian on 18 June 2013
psrock said:
Once again, MS is not doing anything new, they have made it standards because they have to in order to compete. And just like MS is building and moving foward i expect Sony to do it too. SOE is known for huge MMO on the PC side, they have cloud computing. 

 

Can you tell me what company is giving each developer who makes a game for their system, free cloud computing.  Sony isn't doing this because they do not have the structure, Nintendo, yeah right.  This has nothing to do with competing with the PS4 but a plan to make their console a more future proof device and their Cloud platform a platform for any games not just console.

I believe the difference in perpective is that most gamers only look at the now.  Oh the PS3 has GDDR and 1.8 Flops.  Yeah thats great but thats a vision thats very limited to that one device and that one platform.  Get developers leveraging your cloud and now you get them using it for PC games, IOS and Android, Mac and maybe just maybe PS4 and WiiU.  

An MMO is a totally different infrastucture than MS cloud compute but I will get into that one later.