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Forums - Sony - For those with your head in the sand (PS4 DRM)

starcraft on 08 June 2013
papamudd said:
@starcraft: However what we can quite readily infer from both companies is that their DRM systems will be damn near identical.
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We are inferring 2 very different things from the facts. While both have said the DRM is being left up to 3rd parties, MS has actually revealed how it will work on the X1. Alternatively, Sony has shown no indication of having a set up similar at all in regards to how DRM would work on the PS4. Now Sony could quite likely have set up a system (and that system could be very different) that would effectively be the same, but the evidence thus far does not support that such a system even exists on the PS4. Reportedly, there was a patent/copyright Sony was working on for basically watermarking blu ray discs, but have said that they won't be using that on the PS4, and for all we know could be for movies. Therefore we can infer that if Sony was in fact previously planning on using that type of system it would be vastly different in implementation, but effectively the same result.

So we have MS saying that DRM is up to the 3rd party games, yet they set up the system for them to enforce any DRM they might want easily and effectively.
Then we have Sony saying if a 3rd party wants to enforce DRM that's up to them to figure out how to do so.

That is the big key difference between the two in regards to DRM. X1 is already doing it, and PS4 is not (as far as we know and has been stated publicly)

So 3rd party games on X1 only need to figure out how much to charge, but for ps4 they need to figure out how to enforce such a system and charge for it.

You're drawing a falacious distinction.  Again, third parties have already figured out how to enforce such systems, and already charge for them on the current generation's consoles.  By my definition, both these companies have already made DRM possible on their current systems, and will both do so again in the new generation, as they have each stated.

However, presupposing that you're correct, and that for some silly reason Sony refuses to engage with third party publishers in any way on making DRM and trade-in systems function, do you honestly suppose that any major game released by a third party with trade-in DRM for the X1 will not have the same trade-in DRM for the PS4?



starcraft - Playing Games = FUN, Talking about Games = SERIOUS

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Hynad on 08 June 2013
Kasz216 said:

I'm not sure what part of "We won't force customers to use Xbox One like authentication, and used sales fees, we're leaving that up to the publishers" is supposed to be particularly comforting.

I mean, we're assuming MOST publishers love those features right? That they won't want to be losing money via used sales sale on Playstation when they could be getting paid for uses sales on 360.

Nothing in what they said actually doesn't suggest that the PS3 won't have an Xbox one like authentication system. Just that sony won't force it on you. The individual publishers will. Instead of your PS4 not playing any games after 24 hours. Maybe just nearly every game except Sony games don't play after 24 hours. Maybe games come with good old CD Keys.


Logic dictates that the publishers are going to do SOMETHING to make up for that extra profit.  Either by some sort of similiar system for PS4 games... or by making Xbone games more appealing. (Tons of exclusive content, unpaid timed exclusives.)

 

Microsoft is essentially using a "trickledown" approach here.  Favor the publishers at the expense of the consumers, and your competitors have to match, or face issues with the publishers.

Since games are what move consoles... in the end, it could help via exclusive content more then negative backlash for being jerks.

It cuases a "race to the bottom."

Sony can not play, but then they might lose anyway.

You mean... Like those devs do with their Wii U games? ¬_¬



Kasz216 on 08 June 2013
Hynad said:
Kasz216 said:

I'm not sure what part of "We won't force customers to use Xbox One like authentication, and used sales fees, we're leaving that up to the publishers" is supposed to be particularly comforting.

I mean, we're assuming MOST publishers love those features right? That they won't want to be losing money via used sales sale on Playstation when they could be getting paid for uses sales on 360.

Nothing in what they said actually doesn't suggest that the PS3 won't have an Xbox one like authentication system. Just that sony won't force it on you. The individual publishers will. Instead of your PS4 not playing any games after 24 hours. Maybe just nearly every game except Sony games don't play after 24 hours. Maybe games come with good old CD Keys.


Logic dictates that the publishers are going to do SOMETHING to make up for that extra profit.  Either by some sort of similiar system for PS4 games... or by making Xbone games more appealing. (Tons of exclusive content, unpaid timed exclusives.)

 

Microsoft is essentially using a "trickledown" approach here.  Favor the publishers at the expense of the consumers, and your competitors have to match, or face issues with the publishers.

Since games are what move consoles... in the end, it could help via exclusive content more then negative backlash for being jerks.

It cuases a "race to the bottom."

Sony can not play, but then they might lose anyway.

You mean... Like those devs do with their Wii U games? ¬_¬

A) Who said it was up to devs on the Wii U?  Nintendo's always been a pretty restrictive company when it comes to publishers.

 Actually, all the console manufacturers have.  You can gurantee online passes specifically needed to be cleared by the console owners when they happened.(and probably get a cut)  I mean hell, last gen Sony wouldn't even let you release a late port unless you added features.  Now they just don't care when it comes to DRM or publishers deciding how much extra money they can make off Playstation users without their imput?

 

B) Will the Wii U even be getting the same games?  Seems unlikely.   Even if they did the PS4/Xbone versions would be pretty hugely superior in terms of "extra stuff" due to the tech limits of the WIi U.



Shinobi-san on 08 June 2013

Yoshida making jokes about DRM on hes twitter is all the proof i need



Intel Core i7 3770K [3.5GHz]|MSI Big Bang Z77 Mpower|Corsair Vengeance DDR3-1866 2 x 4GB|MSI GeForce GTX 560 ti Twin Frozr 2|OCZ Vertex 4 128GB|Corsair HX750|Cooler Master CM 690II Advanced|

Hynad on 08 June 2013
Kasz216 said:
Hynad said:
Kasz216 said:

I'm not sure what part of "We won't force customers to use Xbox One like authentication, and used sales fees, we're leaving that up to the publishers" is supposed to be particularly comforting.

I mean, we're assuming MOST publishers love those features right? That they won't want to be losing money via used sales sale on Playstation when they could be getting paid for uses sales on 360.

Nothing in what they said actually doesn't suggest that the PS3 won't have an Xbox one like authentication system. Just that sony won't force it on you. The individual publishers will. Instead of your PS4 not playing any games after 24 hours. Maybe just nearly every game except Sony games don't play after 24 hours. Maybe games come with good old CD Keys.


Logic dictates that the publishers are going to do SOMETHING to make up for that extra profit.  Either by some sort of similiar system for PS4 games... or by making Xbone games more appealing. (Tons of exclusive content, unpaid timed exclusives.)

 

Microsoft is essentially using a "trickledown" approach here.  Favor the publishers at the expense of the consumers, and your competitors have to match, or face issues with the publishers.

Since games are what move consoles... in the end, it could help via exclusive content more then negative backlash for being jerks.

It cuases a "race to the bottom."

Sony can not play, but then they might lose anyway.

You mean... Like those devs do with their Wii U games? ¬_¬

A) Who said it was up to devs on the Wii U?  Nintendo's always been a pretty restrictive company when it comes to publishers.  Actually, all the console manufacturers have.  You can gurantee online passes specifically needed to be cleared by the console owners when they happened.

B) Will the Wii U even be getting the same games?


It's already up to the devs on PS3, and see how broad it was implemented? Online passes to unlock online play for a few games is all there is. Publishers get their extra money, people can still sell there crappy CoD MWUGF 28 after 6 months to get the new version, and everyone's happy. 

Sony said you'll be able to play your games old school style. Even if you don't have access to the internet. They mentioned how some countries where they sell their consoles don't have a good enough internet infrastructure, so implementing a solution as draconic as the XBO's was never considered.  So really, how much spin will people make out of this. You're saying that those people won't have access to the hundreds of third party publisher games because they don't have an internet access?  



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HoloDust on 08 June 2013

Hm, I see MS viral marketeers are in full damage control mode.



crissindahouse on 08 June 2013

it's not like on xbox one but probably still not like this gen.

i expect for xbox one:

24 hours connection needed for every game and some publisher will use the possibilty for that used games stuff.

i expect for ps4:

online pass for every sony game which will be a problem for most used next gen games because next gen games will almost all profit a lot from online. and the same publisher will use drm who use it on xbox one. that means also on ps4, there won't be game rental for games of different publishers.

yes, xbox one is stricter but if ubisoft, activision, ea and other publisher will use this option on ps4, expect to see also on this console a lot of problems for used games and game rental. almost everything will be around online integration next gen.

at least that's how i understood the sony message with "it'S up to the publsiher", something which wasn't a possibility for them this gen.



papamudd on 08 June 2013

@StarCraft: You're drawing a falacious distinction. Again, third parties have already figured out how to enforce such systems, and already charge for them on the current generation's consoles. By my definition, both these companies have already made DRM possible on their current systems, and will both do so again in the new generation, as they have each stated.

However, presupposing that you're correct, and that for some silly reason Sony refuses to engage with third party publishers in any way on making DRM and trade-in systems function, do you honestly suppose that any major game released by a third party with trade-in DRM for the X1 will not have the same trade-in DRM for the PS4?
----------------------------------------
There is a distinction between paying an extra cost for a used game, and unlocking online features. Small, but its there as single player games would not be affected.

Effectively MS is doing all the grunt work for a 3rd party to be able to readily track the owner of a specific disc, who they are sharing with, and remove their game rights.

PS4 is doing none of that we know of yet. Effectively it could remain the same as current gen DRM. Now 3rd parties could come up with new ways to enforce a monetization method on the PS4 such as CD keys and that unlocking the unlock key from the ps store. However, that would be entirely up to the 3rd party to do all of that work. Meanwhile, First party exclusives will have no such restrictions or hoops to jump through as x1 already has in place.

I'm not saying the ps4 won't have any type of DRM at all, that would be ridiculous. What I'm saying is that X1 comes readily enabled for 3rd parties to enforce and regulate DRM with their unique system they set up THAT HAS BEEN CONFIRMED / REVEALED to track disc copies on every x1 system, and have it linked to an XBL account.

How it will work with Sony is yet to be revealed as it is up to the 3rd party how to regulate and enforce such things. That does not mean that 3rd parties can't or won't charge for used games on the PS4.

We know how it is going to work on the X1 since they built a large chunk of the gaming experience around it. Truly the only thing they left up to the 3rd parties is how much to charge if at all for used games, as MS will handle all the enforcing and tracking.

That is a big key difference.

The X1 bakes cake, places it in front of you, and then says you can't have a piece until Daddy says its okay. - set up everything for DRM (Tracking, enforcement, etc.)

mean while Sony says "The cake is a lie" - set up nothing for the intentional purpose of DRM



Talal said:
I will permaban myself if the game releases in 2014.

in reference to KH3 release date

Kasz216 on 08 June 2013
Hynad said:
Kasz216 said:
Hynad said:
Kasz216 said:

I'm not sure what part of "We won't force customers to use Xbox One like authentication, and used sales fees, we're leaving that up to the publishers" is supposed to be particularly comforting.

I mean, we're assuming MOST publishers love those features right? That they won't want to be losing money via used sales sale on Playstation when they could be getting paid for uses sales on 360.

Nothing in what they said actually doesn't suggest that the PS3 won't have an Xbox one like authentication system. Just that sony won't force it on you. The individual publishers will. Instead of your PS4 not playing any games after 24 hours. Maybe just nearly every game except Sony games don't play after 24 hours. Maybe games come with good old CD Keys.


Logic dictates that the publishers are going to do SOMETHING to make up for that extra profit.  Either by some sort of similiar system for PS4 games... or by making Xbone games more appealing. (Tons of exclusive content, unpaid timed exclusives.)

 

Microsoft is essentially using a "trickledown" approach here.  Favor the publishers at the expense of the consumers, and your competitors have to match, or face issues with the publishers.

Since games are what move consoles... in the end, it could help via exclusive content more then negative backlash for being jerks.

It cuases a "race to the bottom."

Sony can not play, but then they might lose anyway.

You mean... Like those devs do with their Wii U games? ¬_¬

A) Who said it was up to devs on the Wii U?  Nintendo's always been a pretty restrictive company when it comes to publishers.  Actually, all the console manufacturers have.  You can gurantee online passes specifically needed to be cleared by the console owners when they happened.

B) Will the Wii U even be getting the same games?


It's already up to the devs on PS3, and see how broad it was implemented? Online passes to unlock online play for a few games is all there is. Publishers get their extra money, people can still sell there crappy CoD MWUGF 28 after 6 months to get the new version, and everyone's happy. 

Sony said you'll be able to play your games old school style. Even if you don't have access to the internet. They mentioned how some countries where they sell their consoles don't have a good enough internet infrastructure to even think of implementing a solution as draconic as the XBO's.  So really, how much spin will people make out of this. You're saying that those people won't have access to the hundreds of third party publisher games because they don't have an internet access?  


A) Are you sure it's actually  up to them?   Or do they have to get permission and pay off sony for online passes?  

B1) Do you think Diablo 3 on PS3 will require an always on connection?  The PC version already does... the Xbox one version will.  The PS3 version will right?  More or less answers if Publisher could do it no?   People won't be able to play Diablo 3 offline even though it can be played fully single player.

B2) As for what Sony said about some countries not having good enough internet structure.  (Which by the way, the US falls into that category in a number of areas).  Aren't you going off base?   We both agreed Sony doesn't have a say in the matter right?  So what Sony's opinion can be completely  ignored here.  They think this, yet for some reason aren't forcing companies to not use that kind of DRM.   Why?   They control the system.  They can mandate it just as eaisly as they mandate more content.  They clearly haven't however.  


B3)  EA is killing their online passes, understandable considering the Xone makes it so they get money off used games another way.  Online passes were shown to be pretty profitable.

Do you really think EA is just giving up that revenue stream on PS4 with no compensation?  Or perhaps they'll use Xbox One like DRM?  Or maybe that disc watermarking so you have to pay money for each installation after the first?

What is the best case scenario is.... Sony is demanding less of a cut of sales?  

If EA was getting NOTHING out of it, don't you think they'd be demanding SOMETHING.

At the very least, doesn't it seem extremely likely that EA will implement such a system since they are not using pay for online anyore?  

B4) Why do you think Microsoft implemented these anti-consumer polcies, it's not like they don't understand the software situtation in poor countries.   Hell, it's funny, before this Microsoft's general software strategy has been "If you are going to pirate... pirate us!"   The XBox, and the 360 were both extremely easy to hack and pirate, with no real effort taken to protect from piracy unlike say the PS3.

Specfic publisher interest seems likely, no?

 

It's not like it'd of been the first time Sony has specifically misled people about something.  (Nor microsoft or Nitnendo if it was them.)

One should always be suspious about corporations and never take anything they say at face value.



J_Allard on 08 June 2013
Hynad said:
You do realise that you're all arguing over something you don't yet know the full details?

What Sony is implementing or not is still in the air. But it's a real treat to see all the XBO supporters come in here wishing Sony will implement something worse than MS...

If that's not desperation and trolling...

Can you point out anyone in here, XBO supporter or not, posting wishes that Sony will implement something "worse" than MS? Give me a break. The feelings some of you catch over corporations are adorable.