Forums - Gaming Discussion - What made Microsoft succeed where Sega could not?

 

Really, just money... how about more creativity, better developers and better hardware...

if Sega were so great, they would have money of their own. Sega sucks now, they sucked back then. Sega have made a business of regurgitating the same crap over and over for decades, just like Capcom, Squeenix and other weebo companies. Its about time they bit the dust and let companies like Microsoft, Ubisoft and Bathesda take over.  

 

CGI-Quality said:
foodfather said:
Really, just money... how about more creativity, better developers and better hardware...

Sure, the Xbox was a stronger system than the Dreamcast, but the PS2 proved just how much that didn't matter at all. Creativity is subjective (and in fact, I'd give Sega the nod ten times over). Developers I can agree with to an extent, but that, too, matters little. The fact that Microsoft could finance their machine in a way Sega couldn't is the strongest reasoning here, leaving "money" as the main answer.

I reckon I came across as a bit of a lunatic in my initial post, I'm not a total Sega hater, I like the Panzer and Jet Set radio franchise but this thread just seemed like another Xbox hate thread in disguise. 

I respect your opinion, in fact, you have made me change my initial view point, but idiots just replying ''money'' need to get their heads out of their arse. IMO of course. 

~Mod Edit~

This post has been moderated.

-Smeags



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Booyah said:
burninmylight said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
CGI-Quality said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:


I was about to type a similar point. Everyone raves about Sega's IP nowadays, but outside of Sonic, they sold like crap. Jet Grind/Set Radio and Shenmue are the quintessential must-have hipster games now, but they sold like crap back in the day, along with Virtual On, Chu Chu Rocket, Skies of Arcadia and a bunch of others I can't think of at the moment.

I see people online all the time begging for a Shenmue 3 or JSR sequel (and I wouldn't mind the latter + a new Virtual On), but I can guarantee you funding those projects would be the equivalent of shoveling a pile of money into a burning furnace.


PSO was one of their best games, and it was very successful and very, very 1st party. Guess which game has a sequel? Although PSU was toilet PSO2 looks very promising.

Dreamcast was the greatest fighting game system of all time and if it had gotten more 3rd party support maybe it would have been more successful, but 3rd party games don't sell on Sega systems lol.

Hell yeah it was a fighting fans dream. Kicked off right from the start with SoulCalibur and never let up in that regard.



foodfather said:

 

Really, just money... how about more creativity, better developers and better hardware...

if Sega were so great, they would have money of their own. Sega sucks now, they sucked back then. Sega have made a business of regurgitating the same crap over and over for decades, just like Capcom, Squeenix and other weebo companies. Its about time they bit the dust and let companies like Microsoft, Ubisoft and Bathesda take over.  

 

CGI-Quality said:
foodfather said:
Really, just money... how about more creativity, better developers and better hardware...

Sure, the Xbox was a stronger system than the Dreamcast, but the PS2 proved just how much that didn't matter at all. Creativity is subjective (and in fact, I'd give Sega the nod ten times over). Developers I can agree with to an extent, but that, too, matters little. The fact that Microsoft could finance their machine in a way Sega couldn't is the strongest reasoning here, leaving "money" as the main answer.

I reckon I came across as a bit of a lunatic in my initial post, I'm not a total Sega hater, I like the Panzer and Jet Set radio franchise but this thread just seemed like another Xbox hate thread in disguise. 

I respect your opinion, in fact, you have made me change my initial view point, but idiots just replying ''money'' need to get their heads out of their arse. IMO of course. 

Fair enough, though I advise not to call people "idiots".



                                                                                                             

Sega in a nutshell

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlulSyBI2aY

 

Microsoft in a nutshell

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvsboPUjrGc



Sega made some huge mistakes with the 32x and Saturn that lost them consumer trust and lots of money, by the time they fixed those problems with the Dreamcast it was too late. When Microsoft released the Xbox they successfully brought online and PC oriented games like FPS and WRPG to consoles which was a pretty big deal. When PS3 came out it made some of the same mistakes Saturn made and Microsoft was able to capitalize on them. Plus Microsoft has an infinte amount of money where as Sega does not



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

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zorg1000 said:
Sega made some huge mistakes with the 32x and Saturn that lost them consumer trust and lots of money, by the time they fixed those problems with the Dreamcast it was too late. When Microsoft released the Xbox they successfully brought online and PC oriented games like FPS and WRPG to consoles which was a pretty big deal. When PS3 came out it made some of the same mistakes Saturn made and Microsoft was able to capitalize on them. Plus Microsoft has an infinte amount of money where as Sega does not


Bam...DEAD ON! That and Nintendo never allowed them to hit the ground running with third party support. Kind of shot them at the knee caps before they could take a step. The rest Sega did to themselves from within.



S.T.A.G.E. said:
zorg1000 said:
Sega made some huge mistakes with the 32x and Saturn that lost them consumer trust and lots of money, by the time they fixed those problems with the Dreamcast it was too late. When Microsoft released the Xbox they successfully brought online and PC oriented games like FPS and WRPG to consoles which was a pretty big deal. When PS3 came out it made some of the same mistakes Saturn made and Microsoft was able to capitalize on them. Plus Microsoft has an infinte amount of money where as Sega does not


Bam...DEAD ON! That and Nintendo never allowed them to hit the ground running with third party support. Kind of shot them at the knee caps before they could take a step. The rest Sega did to themselves from within.

I always thought Iit would have been cool if Dreamcast lasted a few years longer then Sega and Microsoft collaborated togethe to make Xbox in 02-03



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

Chris Hu said:
TeddostheFireKing said:
Rather than just say money:

1). Microsoft hasn't released 2 major additions to the 360 with games which aren't cross compatible (Genesis Mega CD and 32x).
2). Microsoft hasn't released a major console on the day of its full E3 reveal (Saturn).
3). Microsoft hasn't killed off it's old console while waiting to build up to its new release (Saturn --> Dreamcast).
4). Microsoft isn't trying to incorporate a design which is unheard of at it's time (Saturn's Dual Core).
5). Microsoft didn't have two separate teams designing two totally different consoles on different consoles (Sega: USA 32x and Japan Saturn IIRC).
6). Microsoft hasn't dismantled it's American game studios (well not quite Sega levels anyway). (Sega of Japan had enough of Sega America and basically closed it down, so Sega's overall game output was roughly reduced by half).
7). Microsoft doesn't have a handheld.
8). Sega didn't have Microsofts money :P

It din't help that the Saturn was more expensive then the PS1 either.  I give Sega a pass on the Sega CD but the 32X should never been developed and released that money should have been spent on making the Saturn a better console or it could have been spend on making more games.

The Saturn was more expensive because of the extra materials needed for the second core, it was disastrous :/

The Saturn also rendered games in cubes instead of triangles... which is insane and made porting very difficult between the Saturn and PS1/N64 which both used simpler and industry standard triangles.

The 32X, Sega CD and Saturn fiasco is almost a B movie plot it's so crazy how it happened, I don't know how Sega didn't see the brand confusion with so many simultaneous platforms all competing for the same marketshare. 



CGI-Quality said:
burninmylight said:
CGI-Quality said:
burninmylight said:


I was about to type a similar point. Everyone raves about Sega's IP nowadays, but outside of Sonic, they sold like crap. Jet Grind/Set Radio and Shenmue are the quintessential must-have hipster games now, but they sold like crap back in the day, along with Virtual On, Chu Chu Rocket, Skies of Arcadia and a bunch of others I can't think of at the moment.

I see people online all the time begging for a Shenmue 3 or JSR sequel (and I wouldn't mind the latter + a new Virtual On), but I can guarantee you funding those projects would be the equivalent of shoveling a pile of money into a burning furnace.

Sega games "sold like crap"? Define that and humor me. 


OK, fine. In this instance, "sold like crap" means "didn't sell enough units to recoup development costs, warrant a sequel, or push hardware." Shenmue sold 1.18 million units, an amount normally worthy of celebration back in 2000.

*UNFINISHED DRAFT, WILL RETURN*

Really? Then why did Streets of Rage, Virtua Fighter, and Yakuza all have sequels? Daytona USA? Crazy Taxi? Virtua Tennis? I could go on, but I think I've made my point.


I said I wasn't done and I would return to finish my post. Perhaps I didn't make it big and shiny enough for you to notice.

IF YOU HAD WAITED FOR ME TO LET ME GO BACK AND FINISH BEFORE "PROVING" YOU POINT,  you would have let me preface this by saying I'm speaking of games from the Saturn and Dreamcast era. Sega could make make sequels galore to everything back in those days because game development wasn't nearly the risk it is now. There are a countless number of IPs that got sequels then that publishers nowadays would never greenlight. But since you brought some of those other games up, I'll address them.

As I was saying, Shenmue sold 1.18 million units, but Sega still lost a ton of money on it's $70 million budget. It was also one of those games that got a significant portion of it's sales after the game had been marked down considerably. Google it.

Jet Grind/Set Radio had a sequel early in the Xbox's life. VGC doesn't have numbers for the original, but the Xbox sequel managed only about 210k units. The original failed at retail (helped by horrible marketing in the West) and the game was exclusive to a system the Japanese rejected from the get-go... That screams Microsoft money-hat to me.

Streets of Rage hasn't had a new game in the series since the Genesis/Megadrive, when beat-em-ups were then what shooters are now. Not to mention Sega was at it's peak in terms of popularity and the Genesis was it's most popular console. Not to mention developing and producing games then was a much cheaper venture in the 90s. How come we haven't seen a SoR since then? The original sold well though.

Virtua Fighter is an exception, although it lives in the shadow of series' like Tekken, Street Fighter and even Mortal Kombat. According to the chartz, no VF has ever cracked 2 million though. Oh, and VF3TB, the one on Dreamcast? It sold .37 million units. Not bad, but I'm honestly surprised it didn't do better, considering how popular it was in arcades and it's big marketing push.

Crazy Taxi? First one was crazy popular because it showed off the amazing power of the Dreamcast and how the arcade experience could be brought home, but it's popularity waned in a massive way after, and it showed by the sales of each sequel.

Yakuza is another exception, but like I said, I was referring to the games from the days when Sega had its own hardware. That's why I said sold like crap, not sell.

Virtual On: Oratorio Tangram? Love that game to death, wish they would make it's true sequel (Marz was garbage), but no one bought it. The major stores in my area like Wal Mart and Target wouldn't even put it on shelves, so I had to order it online months after it launched.

Chu Chu Rocket? Collected dust on shelves so people could play that shitty South Park FPS. Seaman? Sega didn't deem it worthy of producing the sequel, and it never made it out of Japan.

18 Wheeler: American Pro Trucker? One sequel you probably never heard of, The King of Route 66.

Blue Stinger? lol

Hundred Swords? Don't know how well it did, but no sequel I ever heard of.

Metropolis Street Racer? Read this

The 2K Sports series? Some of the greatest successes of the DC, from a commercial and critical standpoint.

Ooga Booga? Gets a pass because it came when the DC was long since dead. Got a raving review on IGN.

Daytona USA? No new game in 13 years. Closest you can get to it is XBLA/PSN ports.

Outrigger? Don't know how it did saleswise, but no sequel. Wasn't your whole point that all these good games Sega made and published had sequels?

Phantasy Star Online? Has never sold well and always been extremely niche. Survives because it's fanbase is extremely loyal and willing to go with the MMO subscription model.

Power Stone? I really, really wish it was more popular. I would kill for a Power Stone 3, but outside of a DC sequel and a PSP collection, that IP is X-over-eyes dead.

Rez? About 50k worldwide, and all of it's sequels have been "spiritual" and usually free on PC.

Sega Bass Fishing? That was worthy of a few sequels.

Samba de Amigo? Another one of those games like Shenmue and JSR that everyone sings the praises for now, but no one bought. One maraca-less Wii port.

Skies of Arcadia? Hardly anyone played the original, hardly anyone played the GC port. I wish I was one of the ones, but at that time I was a broke little HS kid that could only stare at the case through the glass and dream.

Space Channel 5? One sequel on DC and ports to XBLA, PSN and Steam. No original games outside of DC.

Typing of the Dead? One PS2 and PC sequel.

Virtua Cop? Doesn't deserve to sell well, since they kept porting VC2 over and over and over instead of actually making a fresh new game.

Virtua Tennis? Awesome series on the Dreamcast, glad Sega continued to publish it throughout the years, sales peaked in '07.

 

So of all the Dreamcast games, the IPs that really moved units (Daytona, Crazy Taxi, VF, the 2K Sports Series, Virtua Tennis) were far and few compared to the ones that collected dust on shelves. I could go on, but I think I've made my point and shattered yours. I didn't even get to Saturn games....



007BondAgent said:
money


This.

SEGA was broke from several past mistakes. The dreamcast was awesome but they didnt have the financial fortitude to see it through.