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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Regarding the PS4 announcement - "More, More, More—How Do You Like It? "

artur-fernand said:
Yet another huge text saying how not only Sony is doomed, but the entire industry of console gaming will eventually perish. Jesus Christ...

Personally, Andrew House could have entered the stage, showed that image with a shitton of third-parties, said "PlayStation 4, Holydays 2013", walked away, and I'd still be happy. It's gonna have GAMES and isn't that the most important thing? But no, if it doesn't offer something "REVOLUTIONARY" then it will certainly crash and burn.

It's not like people are making this stuff up out of thin air. Just look at the alarming amount of consolidation and developers going bankrupt. Coupled with a recession, and skyrocketing development costs, it's easy to see why some can see a grim future for the games industry.

Will there be an all out crash reminiscent of Atari in the early 80s? Probably not, but I think we're going to see a situation where less and less full retail $60 games are released, even more companies buying eachother out and going bankrupt, and an influx in free to play/ micro cell phone type games for $1. I also think there's going to be a major decline in sales overall, as people become less interested in the same types of games, and find it increasingly difficult to justify buying yet another piece of hardware for $500-$600 just for better graphics and social networking. Not a crash, but certainly a gaming "depression" for lack of a better word.

The poor sales of Vita, Wii U, and 3DS (outside Japan) are a sign of things to come. They are not going to be the exception, but the NORM. It is no coincidence that these also happen to be the three most recent platforms.



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RolStoppable said:
pokoko said:

No, I'm sorry, but you're wrong.  It's a sophomoric and bitter piece.  Read it again and note all the hyperbole and insults.  Note all the strawman arguments and false information.  That's not professional at all.

As for the idea that improving your hardware hurts gaming, that's ridiculous.  It's like saying we should take brushes away from painters and give them pieces of grass because it will make their paintings better.  It's just sophistry.  Not even Nintendo believes that, as every single device they've made has been more powerful than previous models.

Even then, the entire point of Sony's presentation wasn't "moar power", it was about removing artificial barriers.  Are the artists themselves, the developers, complaining about the Cell being replaced by normalized PC architecture?  Are they angry that more RAM lets them do what they want?  If so, then I'll listen to his point, but I haven't heard anything like that.

The writer just wants gaming to fit his vision, that's all, and no other.  He doesn't want explosions, he doesn't want FPS, he doesn't want anything that he won't enjoy to exist.  And that's sad and hateful.  I loathe people like that.

That's pretty hypocritical coming from someone with an extensive history of complaining about Nintendo systems, Mario games and platformers in generatl.

I've complained about Nintendo's lack of variety, but that's a different beast.  I have nothing against Nintendo, and wouldn't mind having a Wii U if they end up having more RPGs this gen than the others, which looks possible.  I also don't complain about platformers existing, I have zero problem with that.  Less than zero problem, actually, because I think all genres have a right to exist and that having more types of games improves gaming as a whole.  I just don't care much for plat-formers personally but that's not the same as hating them.

So, no, not hypocritical at all.



sales2099 said:
Read the whole thing. Excellent read. Sony hiding under the banner of "gamers first" for positive PR, but their vision of better graphics > better creativity is not the right mind set.

Games like KZ, pretty or not, the gameplay looked generic, certainly not creative or groundbreaking. Id go so far as to say COD does a much better job of chaotic surroundings when in a firefight.

So really, Sony is all talk yet again, giving us the same, only prettier, but promising something more that may not come for a while.

I would be willing to bet that MS is heading in the same direction with "Durango" (as in higher specs. prettier games, easier development).  I could probably re-write this article in 2 months and replace "Sony" with "Microsoft".  I hope you would make the same comment on that article as you did in this one.

 

More on-topic:  The fact that Sony is making this as easy for developers as possible gives support to the fact that they will be able to be more creative since they won't need to spend their time over-coming technical hurdles.



Platinums: Red Dead Redemption, Killzone 2, LittleBigPlanet, Terminator Salvation, Uncharted 1, inFamous Second Son, Rocket League

Metallicube said:
artur-fernand said:
Yet another huge text saying how not only Sony is doomed, but the entire industry of console gaming will eventually perish. Jesus Christ...

Personally, Andrew House could have entered the stage, showed that image with a shitton of third-parties, said "PlayStation 4, Holydays 2013", walked away, and I'd still be happy. It's gonna have GAMES and isn't that the most important thing? But no, if it doesn't offer something "REVOLUTIONARY" then it will certainly crash and burn.

It's not like people are making this stuff up out of thin air. Just look at the alarming amount of consolidation and developers going bankrupt. Coupled with a recession, and skyrocketing development costs, it's easy to see why some can see a grim future for the games industry.

Will there be an all out crash reminiscent of Atari in the early 80s? Probably not, but I think we're going to see a situation where less and less $60 games are released, even more companies buying eachother out and going bankrupt, and an influx in free to play/ micro cell phone type games for $1. I also think there's going to be a major decline in sales overall, as people become less interested in the same types of games, and find it increasingly difficult to justify buying yet another piece of hardware for $500-$600 just for better graphics and social networking. Not a crash, but certainly a gaming "depression" for lack of a better word.

I think you are confusing companies who are making bad decision and going bankrupt from those who are catering to their market and advancing.  A company like Take Two (record earnings, record revenue) is expanding their business, getting stronger, buying pieces to thier portfolio while not increasing cost (all without Nintendo support mind you) while THQ made mistake after mistake that eventually cost them in the end.



RolStoppable said:
pezus said:
What did Nintendo think would solve the problem? A tablet controller! Wow, mind-blown.

Why does gaming have to change significantly every generation?
And how did they not present some AWESOME ideas for GAMING - YES! For gaming. Gaikai is mindblowing and something that is a first in the industry.

And I would advise people to actually watch the conference before judging where Sony is going. Yes, this is directed at Rol.

What is the "right" direction for gaming? More platformers, more Nintendo games, simpler graphics obviously, but what else?

The actual solution was the Wii, but it was rejected by the industry. The Wii U was a response to Nintendo getting rejected by the industry. As such, the Wii U is part of the problem that is addressed in the article.

Gaming needs to survive. You can't keep selling to the same amount of consumers when development costs continue to go up. At some point there will be a collapse. If you paid any attention, the number of high profile studios that have closed has increased in the last few years.

The right direction for gaming is healthy diversity. An environment where publishers are willing to greenlight new ideas instead of one where they only bank on safe bets with ever increasing budgets. You, like many others in this thread, mistake this article as a rant of a Nintendo fanboy (since the tone is anti-Sony and Microsoft is heading down the same direction, it can only come from a Nintendo supporter). Didn't you notice that the middle has already fallen out on the 360 and PS3? JRPG fans probably know this problem, because these two HD consoles combined couldn't provide the wealth of the PS2. More power isn't going to solve this problem, it will only intensify it.

*groans* Jesus Christ, Rol. 

I find it hilarious that you hold up older consoles as some sort of Cambrian catalyst for risk-taking. If we're going to cherrypick individual genres as proof, I remember all the dickriding on Mario, Sonic and Street Fighter back in the 16-bit days. It seemed like everyone and their mother was putting out either a new fighter or a new platformer (particularly with an animal mascot). The trendwhoring people bitch about now was just as prevalent back when you had very small teams putting out stuff at a fraction of current AAA costs, and it's lasted in every gen since. Along with shovelware, which the Wii was no stranger to.

And do you really think content creation is still dictated solely by big publishers selling physical disks at Gamestop? That argument is rooted in a 90's mindset of how the industry has to work. With the advent of the downloadable space, developers have options for content delivery they only could've dreamed of just 10 years ago. We've seen plenty of smaller works with gameplay and visual styles Activision and EA wouldn't dare gamble on.

Sony announced efforts on that front during the conference, stating they'll be pushing for self-publishing and pricing on PSN. The Witness itself is going to be self-published; Jonathan Blow himself praised Sony's approach on that front.

Is there any guarantee it will go off without a hitch? Of course not. But it's a much more convincing appraoch for fostering diversity than hoping an underpowered system will magically promote creativity.



Have some time to kill? Read my shitty games blog. http://www.pixlbit.com/blogs/586/gigantor21

:D

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sales2099 said:
VGKing said:
sales2099 said:
VGKing said:
RolStoppable said:
A wonderful read. More horsepower and better graphics don't automatically lead to better games. Gaming is held back by technology, but not in the sense many gamers would think.

It's more than just more horsepower and better graphics. It is  a console built by developers for developers. I can't stress how incredible this is.
PS4 has 8 GB of UNIFIED GDDR5 RAM. It is extremely easy to develop for and from the current leaks(which were all pretty much true) the next XBox will take a backseat next-gen for the PS4. Not only is PS4 more powerful, but it is easier to work with.

PS4 isn't held back by its tech specs, it's held back by developers' imaginations and creativity. 

Xbox has done that since day 1 by making a console thats developer friendly. It must feel nice to be finally be able to speak of PS4 this way. Funny enough PS fans never really appreciated 360 enough for being more developer friendly....wonder what changed :P

maybe compared to the PS3, but the 360 wasn't anywhere near as developer-friendly as the PS4 is going to be and the next Xbox.

If the 360 weas so easy to developer then Microsoft wouldn't be siwtching architectures.

Now thats just wishful thinking combined with ignorance that the 360 was clearly made similar to a PC archetecture.

No it wasn't. It was using a PowerPC CPU.



Veknoid_Outcast said:
pokoko said:

No, I'm sorry, but you're wrong.  It's a sophomoric and bitter piece.  Read it again and note all the hyperbole and insults.  Note all the strawman arguments and false information.  That's not professional at all.

As for the idea that improving your hardware hurts gaming, that's ridiculous.  It's like saying we should take brushes away from painters and give them pieces of grass because it will make their paintings better.  It's just sophistry.  Not even Nintendo believes that, as every single device they've made has been more powerful than previous models.

Even then, the entire point of Sony's presentation wasn't "moar power", it was about removing artificial barriers.  Are the artists themselves, the developers, complaining about the Cell being replaced by normalized PC architecture?  Are they angry that more RAM lets them do what they want?  If so, then I'll listen to his point, but I haven't heard anything like that.

The writer just wants gaming to fit his vision, that's all, and no other.  He doesn't want explosions, he doesn't want FPS, he doesn't want anything that he won't enjoy to exist.  And that's sad and hateful.  I loathe people like that.

Hyperbole is a literary device, and I think the author uses it expertly in the piece. I'll concede your point about it being gratuitously argumentative and insulting.

But that doesn't change the veracity of his thesis, which is that power alone does not a good game make. If anything, a preoccupation with power will hurt the medium, not improve it. Who knows? Maybe PS4 will surprise all of us, and translate all that horsepower under the hood into something progressive. All I know is that there is something essential to a video game, and it doesn't require state-of-the-art graphics, sound, physics, etc.

As to your last paragraph, doesn't everyone want his hobby or passion of choice to conform to his ideal? Why invest so much time, money, and energy in a hobby and not care in which direction it goes?

And there was his strawman, that Sony's entire message was exactly that.  It wasn't, as I've pointed out.  Mark Cerny, the lead system designer, an artist who I respect far, far more than the author of the piece in question, talked extensively about making things easier for developers, taking away the roadblocks and the pitfalls of creating games on new hardware, and I'm supposed to believe that those are negative things for gaming?

The author went in with his preconceived ideas about Sony, and about hardware improving, and he heard what he wanted to hear.

As for transforming my hobby into exactly what I want, no, I don't think that way.  That would be the same as liking basketball and thus wanting all other sports to be abolished.  That's selfish and petty.



Metallicube said:
It's not like people are making this stuff up out of thin air. Just look at the alarming amount of consolidation and developers going bankrupt. Coupled with a recession, and skyrocketing development costs, it's easy to see why some can see a grim future for the games industry.

Will there be an all out crash reminiscent of Atari in the early 80s? Probably not, but I think we're going to see a situation where less and less full retail games are released, even more companies buying eachother out and going bankrupt, and an influx in free to play/ micro cell phone type games for I also think there's going to be a major decline in sales overall, as people become less interested in the same types of games, and find it increasingly difficult to justify buying yet another piece of hardware for - just for better graphics and social networking. Not a crash, but certainly a gaming "depression" for lack of a better word.

The poor sales of Vita, Wii U, and 3DS (outside Japan) are a sign of things to come. They are not going to be the exception, but the NORM. It is no coincidence that these also happen to be the three most recent platforms.

It's defintely a valid point and I understand your reasoning, but I must disagree. The Vita, Wii U and 3DS all have their own reasons to have such poor sales. I honestly don't see this as a sign that gaming is getting weaker and a  videogame "depression" is coming.



artur-fernand said:
benao87 said:
Here's the last 3 paragraphs where he concludes:

Creativity thrives under limitations. People who love games understand this implicitly, since the best players find the most creative ways to succeed within the confines of the rules. The Great Train Robbery is a masterpiece not in spite of its limitations but because of them. So if David Cage doesn’t think he can produce an emotional work of art with a PlayStation 3 and an eight-figure budget, maybe he shouldn’t be in the art-making business.

Expanding the technological capabilities of our game machines is not inherently bad, but treating new tech as a magic bullet is a self-destructive delusion (if a familiar one). The reason that so many games suck is not because the technology is too modest. The reason that so many games suck is because so many games suck. Making art is hard. No microchip changes that.

And yet Sony’s developers insist on the myth of “more.” More polygons and more gigabytes because surely this time, they will lead to the promised land of creative expression. In practice, this dogma hasn’t done much to improve games. Quite the opposite. As production budgets balloon and the cost of entry shuts out independent voices, the worship of “more” is likely to be the ruination of console gaming as we know it. The industry’s arms race with itself simply is not sustainable. Yet here’s Sony, blithely promising to build a bigger gun. They’d better watch out—the recoil’s a bitch.

The bolded part is pretty much his main argument, he does says that "console gaming as we know" will change, but that is already happening or did you miss the 'social' tone of the conference, or the ammount of investments of big studios on social games. For good or bad, things are changing, now, tell me again how these last lines of the article are wrong.

Actually the paragraph that bothers me is the very last one.

 

And yet Sony’s developers insist on the myth of “more.” More polygons and more gigabytes because surely this time, they will lead to the promised land of creative expression. In practice, this dogma hasn’t done much to improve games. Quite the opposite. As production budgets balloon and the cost of entry shuts out independent voices, the worship of “more” is likely to be the ruination of console gaming as we know it. The industry’s arms race with itself simply is not sustainable. Yet here’s Sony, blithely promising to build a bigger gun. They’d better watch out—the recoil’s a bitch.

 

See what I mean? "The RUINATION of console gaming as we know it"? That's pretty exagerated.

I think that Sony first party studios and some 3rd publishers, have proven that if the POWA is used right they will make awesome games.   Look Uncharted or the Last of Us, GOW3, or MGS4, MGS: Ground Zeroes, Red Dead Redemption.    Those games would not be able to be as awesome if they did not had the power of current gen consoles.     If those games were developed for the PS2, the inmersion would not be as awesome, and due to memory limitations the games would not be so "artistic", because they would look like crap.  Graphics, and power matters when making games.      It is never a bad thing, but games can be bad if the developers dont use the power with wisely (with "responsability" lol XD).    If developers just want to make a PS1 games with ultra incredible graphics the game will suck. Just like FFXIII, it is a P1.5 game (creativity wise) but with maginificent graphics, so it sucks! (to most people at least).   I have seen that most japanese developers are having this problem sadly.  They are making PS1 games with pretty graphics, and that is why most of the games suck :(.   There are very few 15 years old games that can be still be played now, but it is not the norm, and that usually happens when even while having technical constrains the developers were so creative and smart that they did some magic tricks with the device and were able to deliver an outstanding game.

If people see the evolution of games from the PS1 to the PS3, you can clearly see an amazing evolution of games, so just as I said many times, Power matters.



pokoko said:
Veknoid_Outcast said:
pokoko said:
[...]

Hyperbole is a literary device, and I think the author uses it expertly in the piece. I'll concede your point about it being gratuitously argumentative and insulting.

But that doesn't change the veracity of his thesis, which is that power alone does not a good game make. If anything, a preoccupation with power will hurt the medium, not improve it. Who knows? Maybe PS4 will surprise all of us, and translate all that horsepower under the hood into something progressive. All I know is that there is something essential to a video game, and it doesn't require state-of-the-art graphics, sound, physics, etc.

As to your last paragraph, doesn't everyone want his hobby or passion of choice to conform to his ideal? Why invest so much time, money, and energy in a hobby and not care in which direction it goes?

And there was his strawman, that Sony's entire message was exactly that.  It wasn't, as I've pointed out.  Mark Cerny, the lead system designer, an artist who I respect far, far more than the author of the piece in question, talked extensively about making things easier for developers, taking away the roadblocks and the pitfalls of creating games on new hardware, and I'm supposed to believe that those are negative things for gaming?

The author went in with his preconceived ideas about Sony, and about hardware improving, and he heard what he wanted to hear.

As for transforming my hobby into exactly what I want, no, I don't think that way.  That would be the same as liking basketball and thus wanting all other sports to be abolished.  That's selfish and petty.

The author is making two, related comments. One about the Sony press conference and one about video games in general. He can only work with what he has, and that's his personal evaluation of what the press conference represented, and what that representation means for the industry. There have been dozens of such articles in the past two days, and his is no exception.

Even if his evaluation of the press conference is completely wrong -- and I don't think it is -- his argument about games in general is correct. The idea that a superpowered system will stir the creative juices of video game makers like never before is flawed.