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Forums - General - Logical proof for God

Jay520 on 07 February 2013
Roma said:

as I said he creates the choice to be bad or good but he knows what you will be and the1 still hasn't answered my question to what would happen if no one was bad, started wars and if there where no diseases

even the angels asked God why he created Adam

I need to do some research before I can answer this


No, that's not what I meant.

Before God created any humans, he already had in his head two groups of people. Group A: people who will choose to go to Heaven. And Group B: People who will choose to go to Hell. 

I'm asking you why doesn't God stop himself from creating Group B. If he knows they will turn out bad, doesn't it make sense to not create them at all.

This question isn't about choice. This about God preventing certain people from being born because he knows they will be bad.



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Tom3k on 07 February 2013
Roma said:

the rules of the universe do not apply to God as he is outside of this universe

as I told you before he never did not exist to start existing he has always been there that is the only explanation to where the universe came from 

what is your explanation to where the universe came from?

The bold actually made me choke on my coffe... Universe by DEFINITION includes ALL that exists (not just the "physicall existence"). If you claim that God exists outside of Universe, you are actually claiming that he doesn't exist. Since everything that exists is UNIVERSE.

Italic. Not too long ago, humans explanation of sunrise was that Helios and his charriot fly over the sky... We now, know that this actually isn't so. So simply because at this time we can't fully explain something with science, doesn't automatically mean that it was created by "God". If we accept that it was created by God we are actually making less sence since we are answering one question with two new ones.

If you answer the existance of Universe with God? Than please explain to me existance of God and creation of Universe by his hands... You'll probably say for 1st part "He is", while I still don't understand what "is" actually should be?



IIIIITHE1IIIII on 07 February 2013
Roma said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

What I think would happen?

 

Less people would be religious. Or at least that seems to be the general trent among countries with less diseases, less violence, less crimes and less war.

 

I really don't know what you wanted or even expected my answer to be.

no the simple answer would be over population as not as many people would die. the earth would not be able to sustain us for very long and humans would run out of sorceresses and die all within a short period of time

it would mean extinction of the human race as well as animals 


Except more wealthy families tend to make less children.



Soundwave on 07 February 2013

Why does a "creator" have to be "God"? That's a human notion of wanting a "daddy", lol.

Even if there was some outside force involved with creation, who's to say it wasn't aliens? Or some kind of force that honestly doesn't give a sh*t about whether you get that job promotion or your kid wins his high school basketball championship?

Could be something that is beyond human comprehension and some other level of sentience altogether.

That's just as valid of a explanation as "daddy with big beard in the sky".



Jay520 on 07 February 2013
Roma said:

because rules are created by someone intelligent

everything has rules except the creator who is not bound by anything.

why can the universe create itself yet a castle in the desert can't?


Castles have been observed by humans to be created by humans. The same cannot be said for objects not made by humans.

- 

Earlier you said "the rules of the universe do not apply to God as he is outside of this universe ." If that's the case, we can say before the universe was created, the rules also didn't apply. Therefore, before the universe was created, it would be possible for something to come from nothing. And if something could come from nothing, then the universe could have formed from nothing.



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Roma on 07 February 2013
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Roma said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

How about the materials that our universe consist of has always existed yet didn't shape anything significant until after the big bang occured?

Why is it so unrealistic to imagine that such materials always have existed while a god that has existed forever makes perfect sense?

because rules are created by someone intelligent

everything has rules except the creator who is not bound by anything.

why can the universe create itself yet a castle in the desert can't?



Surely, if the particles randomly messes around with each other for an eternity it isn't too farfetched to assume that a notable reaction will occur at some point?

 

Or at least less farfetched than assuming that an almighty creator would create all this and then proceed to communicate with us through books, miracles and prophets. Again, despite knowing exactly what will happen and when.

if the material was there and it became something by itself then you do suggest that it did create itself

so you believe that a castle can create itself as I see no difference in the universe creating itself and the castle yet people would say one it utter nonsense but the other is perfectly logical

?



there is enough evidence that supports knowledge in the Quran that was simple impossible to know at the time unless they had machines as advanced as today which they didn't. I'll give  couple of examples but damn I need to sleep so I will do it tomorrow :)

du ska väl också såva nu väll shit så sent. jag hoppas att du tycker att detta är intressant o inte bara löjligt




    R.I.P Mr Iwata :'(

Fifaguy360 on 07 February 2013
pokoko said:
No, no, no. This makes my head hurt. It's a parade of strawmen where he makes up the arguments to suit his answers.

Short answer, and one often repeated: if he's saying the universe can't come from nothing, then he also has to admit that god cannot come from nothing, therefore his argument is meaningless. Sorry, but this is nothing but sophistry.


Not true.

If to create the world God A needed God B to create him and God B needed God C to create him so and so forth to infinitiy ... then the world logically could never be created. Since the world exists, it must mean God always existed.



Roma on 07 February 2013
Jay520 said:
Roma said:

because rules are created by someone intelligent

everything has rules except the creator who is not bound by anything.

why can the universe create itself yet a castle in the desert can't?


Castles have been observed by humans to be created by humans. The same cannot be said for objects not made by humans.

- 

You say "the rules of the universe don't apply to God because he is outside of the universe." If that's the case, we can say before the universe was created, the rule that "something cannot come from nothing" also didn't apply. Therefore, according to your logic, it would be possible for the universe to come from nothing.

not when you have evidence in the Quran

I will continue tomorrow as I need some sleep now. it's 3:39

good night everyone love ya, kisses



    R.I.P Mr Iwata :'(

IIIIITHE1IIIII on 07 February 2013
Roma said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Roma said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

How about the materials that our universe consist of has always existed yet didn't shape anything significant until after the big bang occured?

Why is it so unrealistic to imagine that such materials always have existed while a god that has existed forever makes perfect sense?

because rules are created by someone intelligent

everything has rules except the creator who is not bound by anything.

why can the universe create itself yet a castle in the desert can't?



Surely, if the particles randomly messes around with each other for an eternity it isn't too farfetched to assume that a notable reaction will occur at some point?

 

Or at least less farfetched than assuming that an almighty creator would create all this and then proceed to communicate with us through books, miracles and prophets. Again, despite knowing exactly what will happen and when.

if the material was there and it became something by itself then you do suggest that it did create itself

so you believe that a castle can create itself as I see no difference in the universe creating itself and the castle yet people would say one it utter nonsense but the other is perfectly logical

 

 

du ska väl också såva nu väll shit så sent. jag hoppas att du tycker att detta är intressant o inte bara löjligt  


If these particles reacted to each other for an eternity it would actually make no sense to say that they never will shape a castle. Especially since we humans consist of particles and actually have created castles, thus proving my point.

 

 

Ja, detta är sannerligen intressant. Sov gott



A_C_E on 07 February 2013
Roma said:

9min video

This guy has issues. This guy thinks science states that the universe is perfect when in fact its the Bible that states that people's souls become perfect when they reach heaven. Where in any study of science does it explain the universe as being perfect and why does this guy keep mentioning that science says so? Entropy dictates chaos with no creater/controller, rather reaction. Entropy is a scientific study.

Then this guy starts talking about our souls as if there is an official scientific field that has ever found a soul. The soul according to science doesn't actually exist. How we think and feel and make decisions can all be explained in other scientific means.

There's so much I want to say and I wish I could talk to this fact/word-spinner in real life and just call out his fake ass. I would own this guy in a real discussion.