Mnementh said: I hate to do this, because I'm not against veganism although I'm not one myself. But I'm against stupid arguments, so here we go: How do you know, what the plant you eat is feeling and what it's family feels?

Because plants lack both a brain and a nervous system.

Jay520 said: Mnementh said: I hate to do this, because I'm not against veganism although I'm not one myself. But I'm against stupid arguments, so here we go: How do you know, what the plant you eat is feeling and what it's family feels? Because plants lack both a brain and a nervous system.

Thanks... some people actually don't realise what a stupid argument is and what is not

Max King of the Wild said: the2real4mafol said: It's apart of nature to kill other animals, but the way we treat animals is just wrong. My real problem is that most animals are left in filthy, very overcrowded conditions just so we can get cheap, plentiful meat. I think the least we could do is eat less meat, so less animals are needed and all are organic. The fact that we mass produce these animals to meet our needs, isn't great either especially as we already have too many people on this planet. If anything, for a few years, food like meat or fish should be a luxury just so it can replenish in stocks. It's something that's been overdone for years now. Don't get me wrong i love meat and fish, but it's something we should sacrifice for a little while, just so the future generations can have them. Also, some great stuff can be made with just veg, rice and fruit meat has taken over as the main centerpiece for most of our meals. There is a steak house in milwaukee that serves a 10 pound steak. The point? We do need to eat less meat. A meal should be balanced and meat should be limited for a healthy diet. The OP seems to be under the impression that he needs to completely cut meat out in order to reduce health risk... But the truth is he just needs to limit meat intake and balance it out with fruits and veggies. Funny thing is he will probablly just replace the meat with wheat or soy which is just as bad being over consumed

The best post in this thread.

animals eat meet and we eat meet to create balance in nature.

that's the circle of life!

however there are wrong ways to kill animals of course! if they suffer then you are evil but if you kill them fast and with as little pain as possible then there is no problem with that in my opinion. I've killed animals myself for food with a quick head chop of and they are dead. sometimes they run around a bit like a chicken but as long as it does not have a head it can't feel anything so no problem there.

Jay520 said: Mnementh said: I hate to do this, because I'm not against veganism although I'm not one myself. But I'm against stupid arguments, so here we go: How do you know, what the plant you eat is feeling and what it's family feels? Because plants lack both a brain and a nervous system.

As do most animals. I agree, most animals we eat have. Do you think it is OK to eat sponges, because that are animals without a nervous system?

And as we don't know so far what is the reason for emotions, it may be possible that no nervous system is needed for that.

Mnementh said: As do most animals. I agree, most animals we eat have. Do you think it is OK to eat sponges, because that are animals without a nervous system? And as we don't know so far what is the reason for emotions, it may be possible that no nervous system is needed for that.

We're not talking about animals in general, so it's irrelevant what most animals generally have. We're talking about animals that people tend to eat.

And emotions are impossible without feelings, consciousness, and some sort of mental state, which plants lack altogether.

Why is killing animals for sustenance a big issue? As long as Humanity has been on Earth we have hunted and killed animals it's never going to change so this issue is really a non issue.

Jay520 said: We're not talking about animals in general, so it's irrelevant what most animals generally have. We're talking about animals that people tend to eat. And emotions are impossible without feelings, consciousness, and some sort of mental state, which plants lack altogether.

Bolded: so it is Ok to eat animals without brain/nervous system?

Italic: Are you sure? The point is, we cannot measure emotions, the same we cannot measure a soul. Does that exist at all, or is it some sort of thing our brain is fooling us? We don't know if mammals have this, if plants have this or if humans have this. Also about mental states, feelings and so on: Why are you so sure plants don't have this? And the next questions along the way are: Is it OK to kill something without emotions? Why is it wrong to kill something with emotions? Some people think that hurting a plant is morally also wrong. They eat only, what is falling from the plant: fruits ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruitarianism ). Don't you think, they are morally better people?

"Would we like if aliens came and thought of us as nothing but animals and started doing the same to us as we do to pretty much every animal?"

That right there pretty much says it all.

Eating meat is made out to be something evil that modern man does out of spite when the truth is that we've been doing for tens of thousands of years and it is actually the very thing that made us what we are (meat and fire in combination laid the foundation for modern man to evolve and develop).
There are also plenty of animals who eat other animals and there are even animals who simply anjoy killing (such as bears and panthers), its not more or less natural for us to kill animals and feed on them.

By assuming that meat eating is unbecoming of us since we should be above it (I assume that this is some morality issue), then by the same idealistic train of thought, you should turn off the internet and sell your PC and other gadgets to help the poor and needy of the world, a concern far more pressing and real than meat eating.

Everything we do is natural, from eating meat to posting on video game forums. It is the culmination of our long and ardous development process since we came down from the tree dwelling ancestors that were too dumb and inefficent for either.

Mnementh said: Jay520 said: We're not talking about animals in general, so it's irrelevant what most animals generally have. We're talking about animals that people tend to eat. And emotions are impossible without feelings, consciousness, and some sort of mental state, which plants lack altogether. Bolded: so it is Ok to eat animals without brain/nervous system? Italic: Are you sure? The point is, we cannot measure emotions, the same we cannot measure a soul. Does that exist at all, or is it some sort of thing our brain is fooling us? We don't know if mammals have this, if plants have this or if humans have this. Also about mental states, feelings and so on: Why are you so sure plants don't have this? And the next questions along the way are: Is it OK to kill something without emotions? Why is it wrong to kill something with emotions? Some people think that hurting a plant is morally also wrong. They eat only, what is falling from the plant: fruits ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruitarianism ). Don't you think, they are morally better people?

Bold: I'm not presenting my argument just yet. I'm just answering your question about plants having emotions.

Since, we're using Wikipedia articles, then yes, emotions require consciousness. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion . Plants lack feelings, etc because they lack both a brain and nervous system.

As for your questions, they are irrelevant as I haven't presented my perspective at all. I'm just answering your question about plants having emotions.