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Forums - Gaming - Skyrim Dawnguard PS3: Punished for choosing wrong console

walsufnir on 17 October 2012
ethomaz said:

walsufnir said:

What is your opinion based off? To me it's absolutely clear that Skyrim has strong demand of *main memory* because of the complexity this game has - the growing save-file has already been mentioned by another poster.

The growing save-file is already fixed in Skyrim for PS3... Bethesda already confimed it's another problem.

The fix 1.4 fixed the save issue.


you don't understand the meaning of this - by ongoing progress in this game the save-state is crucial because it has to keep all the things you did this far in this game and *this* has to be kept in memory because the game needs this information. so the save-file-growth is not the real problem but the information that resides there!



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ethomaz on 17 October 2012

lilbroex said:

1. As the other poster said, if it was an issue with video memory then they could just reduce the graphics with a patch or cut down the drawing distance, but its not. If it was a GPU issue the problems would exist from the moment you turned the game on. Graphics aren't the primary problem.

2. The problem gets progressively worse as you play game meaning that it an issue with holding data. The coordinates and structural data for all of the objects you displace and pick up builds as you play the game stack. The quests you pick up/complete are held and tracked at all times. Those things are held in system memory. In

 

3. Also, in case you are unware(which looks likely) the 3 GB of memory that you are talking about Skyrim using on the PC "IS" system memory, not video memory. Your video memory for PCs is on the GPU. Few GPUs have more than 1 GB of RAM as its not really needed an extremely expensive due to it being higher quality. I played Skyrim on my PC at max settings with gaphical enhanment mods using a GPU that has less than 1GB of RAM. The elder scrolls games use "redundant textures" which are similar to the tiles used in old 8bit console games. You don't need a lot of video memory for that.

1. I don't know what is the issue... I think neither the Bestelda know yet.

2. That issue is already fixed in patch 1.4 on PS3... there no more lag with large save data or anything related to how much you played... Bestelda already said that's not the new problem.

3. 2750MB used with max setthing in GPU-Z... video memory... not system memory... the game uses at max 2GB or VRAM but there mods/fixes to make it uses over 2GB VRAM for better performance/framerate (using GPU with more than 2GB VRAM of course).

Five seconds on Google images... 1752MB VRAM used.

Edit - I'm reading a lot of issues with Skyrim from PC users in forums now... and seem like the VRAM is the bottleneck for this game and not system RAM. With AA the VRAM use is even bigger.



ethomaz on 17 October 2012
walsufnir said:
ethomaz said:

walsufnir said:

What is your opinion based off? To me it's absolutely clear that Skyrim has strong demand of *main memory* because of the complexity this game has - the growing save-file has already been mentioned by another poster.

The growing save-file is already fixed in Skyrim for PS3... Bethesda already confimed it's another problem.

The fix 1.4 fixed the save issue.


you don't understand the meaning of this - by ongoing progress in this game the save-state is crucial because it has to keep all the things you did this far in this game and *this* has to be kept in memory because the game needs this information. so the save-file-growth is not the real problem but the information that resides there!

I know and that's already fixed with patch 1.4... you just need to do a manual save and the game works ok in PS3.... no more lags because this issue.

That's what Bestelda said... the problem with the DLC is another one.



lilbroex on 17 October 2012
ethomaz said:

lilbroex said:

 1. As the other poster said, if it was an issue with video memory then they could just reduce the graphics with a patch or cut down the drawing distance, but its not. If it was a GPU issue the problems would exist from the moment you turned the game on. Graphics aren't the primary problem.

2. The problem gets progressively worse as you play game meaning that it an issue with holding data. The coordinates and structural data for all of the objects you displace and pick up builds as you play the game stack. The quests you pick up/complete are held and tracked at all times. Those things are held in system memory. In

 

3. Also, in case you are unware(which looks likely) the 3 GB of memory that you are talking about Skyrim using on the PC "IS" system memory, not video memory. Your video memory for PCs is on the GPU. Few GPUs have more than 1 GB of RAM as its not really needed an extremely expensive due to it being higher quality. I played Skyrim on my PC at max settings with gaphical enhanment mods using a GPU that has less than 1GB of RAM. The elder scrolls games use "redundant textures" which are similar to the tiles used in old 8bit console games. You don't need a lot of video memory for that.

1. I don't know what is the issue... I think neither the Bestelda know yet.

2. That issue is already fixed in patch 1.4 on PS3... there no more lag with large save data or anything related to how much you played... Bestelda already said that's not the new problem.

3. 2750MB used with max setthing in GPU-Z... video memory... not system memory... the game uses at max 2GB or VRAM but there mods/fixes to make it uses over 2GB VRAM for better performance/framerate (using GPU with more than 2GB VRAM of course).

Five seconds on Google images...

 

1. Any technical analyst or even a person that is "slightly" versed in computer hardware interaction/functionality can tell what the problem is.

2.??? What does save data have to do with this? Aso, how do you go from save data to "anything releated to how you played"? You just made that up.

3. Five second to find some red herring that doesn't change a single thing that I just said in any way, form, or fashion...



ethomaz on 17 October 2012

lilbroex said:

1. Any technical analyst or even a person that is "slightly" versed in computer hardware interaction/functionality can tell what the problem is.

2.??? What does save data have to do with this?

3. Five second to find some red herring that doesn't change a single thing that I just said in any way, form, or fashion...

1. lol you can help Bestelda ... please.

2. You said "The problem gets progressively worse as you play game meaning that it an issue with holding data. The coordinates and structural data for all of the objects you displace and pick up builds as you play the game stack. The quests you pick up/complete are held and tracked at all times. Those things are held in system memory." That problem no more exists... what do you talking about?

3. You said the problem is the system ram and "open world games" uses more system RAM... in fact Skrym uses more VRAM than system RAM... so you said I'm wrong and I proved I'm not wrong... and I said 256MB VRAM is not enough to maintain a 720p game in today standards... needs a lot more VRAM because the GPU needs VRAM to work with textures and filters and not just for output (it's not a video output... it's gaphics rendering).



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lilbroex on 17 October 2012
ethomaz said:

lilbroex said:

1. Any technical analyst or even a person that is "slightly" versed in computer hardware interaction/functionality can tell what the problem is.

2.??? What does save data have to do with this?

3. Five second to find some red herring that doesn't change a single thing that I just said in any way, form, or fashion...

1. lol you can help Bestelda ... please.

2. You said "The problem gets progressively worse as you play game meaning that it an issue with holding data. The coordinates and structural data for all of the objects you displace and pick up builds as you play the game stack. The quests you pick up/complete are held and tracked at all times. Those things are held in system memory." That problem no more exists... what do you talking about?

3. You said the problem is the system ram and "open world games" uses more system RAM... in fact Skrym uses more VRAM than system RAM... so you said I'm wrong and I proved I'm not wrong... and I said 256MB VRAM is not enough to maintain a 720p game in today standards... needs a lot more VRAM because the GPU needs VRAM to work with textures and filters and not just for output (it's not a video output... it's gaphics rendering).

1. Nothing can help Bethesda. They would have to pretty much completely rebuild the game to fix the problem.

2.  Thanks for repeating what I worte, but I already know what I said. You still haven't answered the question.

3. That doesn't make any sense. The RAM that is in your motherboard is system RAM. All of it. 100%. Video RAM is on the GPU. I just told you that I played it with at max settings with graphical enhancement mods no less with less than 1 GB of video RAM. The "processor" part of the GPU does the graphics rendering, not RAM. RAM is just for holding the data that is being rendered. The bulk of the data is held in system RAM. 

The PS3 only has 256 MB of Video RAM ,so how has it been releasing 90% of its games in HD if that isn't enough?



ethomaz on 17 October 2012

lilbroex said:

1. Nothing can help Bethesda. They would have to pretty much completely rebuild the game to fix the problem.

2.  Thanks for repepeating it but I know what I said. You still haven't answered the question.

3. That doesn't make any sense. The RAM that is in your motherboard is system RAM. All of it. 100%. Video RAM is on the GPU. I just told you that I played it with at max settings with graphical enhancement mods no less with less than 1 GB of video RAM. The "processor" part of the GPU does the graphics rendering, not RAM. RAM is just for holding the data that is being processed.

The PS3 only has 256 MB of Video RAM ,so how has it been releasing 90% of it games in HD if that isn't enough?

So why all the guys in the internet show Skrym using over 1GB VRAM (not system RAM) even with mid resolutions???

Eg. http://imgur.com/r/gamingpc/MatJS

Why the gamers are buying 4GB GPU to play Skrym??? They don't need that... need system RAM lol lol lol

Skrym bottleneck is VRAM, not system RAM.



fillet on 17 October 2012
ethomaz said:

fillet said:

Incorrect. "Huge open worlds" take massive amounts of system memory, NOT GPU memory. Tricks are employed so that only visible data is rendered and lower resolution textures are used in distance etc. I can assure you right now 256MB for a render of ANY game at 720p is plenty, if you bolt on anti-aliasing then that will increase the amount required but that is something that can be tweaked after release.

The prequels to Skyrim also took massive amounts of memory, I remember Morrowind on the PC, it needed 1GB to be completely smooth without long pauses when going between invisible cut off points. That was from 20012002 ish. Then Oblivion, also needed a relatively high amount of system memory to run smoothly.

This is obviously a system memory issue. As the poster before me has mentioned, Skyrim is EXACTLY the type of game that needs large amounts of system memory. If you read between the lines and think it through it's the only logical answer. The real proof in the pudding is that if it were video memory limitations that were causing the hitching and slowdown - they could be fixed easily enough by employing industry standard tricks, draw distancefogging, lower res textures for distant objects, even close ones if it was really neeeded.

When there is a system memory shortage and the game has already been finished, it's very hard to do anything about it. When DLC comes that only adds to that burden....what can you do? Answer - not much!

Wrong... Skyrim uses more video memory than main memory... in fact it uses near 2GB video memory in medium quality and near 3GB video memory in max setthings.

The main mesmory usage is not even the half of it.

Wrong.

We're talking about the PS3 here and somewhat the Xbox 360. Of course I'm not talking about the PC version. "Max Settings" doesn't even make any sense because you can play at any resolution on the PC. I have 2 x 6950s flashed to 6970s in crossfire and they are 2GB cards. I assure you that Skyrim works very nicely at 2560x1650 on my Dell U3011 using less than 2GB of video RAM at "Max Settings".

You're wrong anyway even if we're talking about PC at my resolution at max settings, Skyrim needs 4GB of ram to run smoothly.



fillet on 17 October 2012
ethomaz said:

lilbroex said:

 1. Nothing can help Bethesda. They would have to pretty much completely rebuild the game to fix the problem.

2.  Thanks for repepeating it but I know what I said. You still haven't answered the question.

3. That doesn't make any sense. The RAM that is in your motherboard is system RAM. All of it. 100%. Video RAM is on the GPU. I just told you that I played it with at max settings with graphical enhancement mods no less with less than 1 GB of video RAM. The "processor" part of the GPU does the graphics rendering, not RAM. RAM is just for holding the data that is being processed.

The PS3 only has 256 MB of Video RAM ,so how has it been releasing 90% of it games in HD if that isn't enough?

So why all the guys in the internet show Skrym using over 1GB VRAM (not system RAM) even with mid resolutions???

Eg. http://imgur.com/r/gamingpc/MatJS

Why the gamers are buying 4GB GPU to play Skrym??? They don't need that... need system RAM lol lol lol

Skrym bottleneck is VRAM, not system RAM.


You're completly wrong because skyrim runs at circa 720p on the PS3 and Xbox 360. You can't go comparing Apples to Oranges and then expect people to believe anything you say carries any weight.

1. Higher resolution textures.

2. Higher resolution output.

3. Higher quality AA, higher AA.

4. Double buffering, tripple buffering etc.

 

All optional on the PC that the PS3 and Xbox 360 won't be using to fill VRAM.

What you talk about isn't even measurable Vs the PS3 and Xbox 360. Sure the VRAM being used can be measured on the PC but Skyrim is a different game in terms of technical requirements on consoles and it's impossible to measure the differences and get relative values to say if you are right, therefore it's completely moot and your point doesn't belong in the thread.



walsufnir on 17 October 2012
ethomaz said:

lilbroex said:

 1. Nothing can help Bethesda. They would have to pretty much completely rebuild the game to fix the problem.

2.  Thanks for repepeating it but I know what I said. You still haven't answered the question.

3. That doesn't make any sense. The RAM that is in your motherboard is system RAM. All of it. 100%. Video RAM is on the GPU. I just told you that I played it with at max settings with graphical enhancement mods no less with less than 1 GB of video RAM. The "processor" part of the GPU does the graphics rendering, not RAM. RAM is just for holding the data that is being processed.

The PS3 only has 256 MB of Video RAM ,so how has it been releasing 90% of it games in HD if that isn't enough?

So why all the guys in the internet show Skrym using over 1GB VRAM (not system RAM) even with mid resolutions???

Eg. http://imgur.com/r/gamingpc/MatJS

Why the gamers are buying 4GB GPU to play Skrym??? They don't need that... need system RAM lol lol lol

Skrym bottleneck is VRAM, not system RAM.

 

thanks for the link: it clearly states why it uses so much vram in this case - this is far off the console-resolution and lod.

why gamers buy 4gb gpu? who exactly? links? perhaps they want to play it at ultra-high settings and very high resolutions? this could be an issue if the engine doesn't scale very well which could be, of course.

what you are trying to construct as a chain of arguments is nothing but, well, constructing something. the conclusion that vram is the bottleneck is still not true (and even if, this would only be true for pc and does not mean anything regarding the consoles).