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Forums - Gaming Discussion - WRPGs versus JRPGs, or: My mis-adventures in KOTOR

zarx on 17 October 2012
adriane23 said:
zarx said:

TES is not your typical WRPG tho, and the game is more about freedom and exploration than combat. It doesn't try to be a flashy action game like God of War. If you want that there is Kingdoms of Amalur, or you know a flashy action game. No one would hold up a TES game as an example of great combat. 

Not to mention "Your character basically just does some flimsy looking action at an enemy and numbers show up." could be used to describe most JRPG combat (just look at Xenoblade and The Last Story for example), tho I guess some have flashy animation and then numbers show up. Most modern western ARPGs don't even expose damage numbers anymore, Skyrim doesn't, Mass Effect and The Witcher 2 don't, Risen and Gothic never have etc. 

If you want a bit of combat depth (and no numbers poping up) in your WARPGs try the Witcher 2 or Mount & Blade etc. There is also a wealth of tactical/strategic and turnbassed WRPGs if those are your thing, give some of them a try.

And shouldn't this "but they generally have no aesthetic appeal." be "but they generally have no aesthetic appeal to me." asthetics are purely subjective. Personally I find games like The Witcher 2 to look pretty damn good. 

That's not an acceptable excuse. The games should at least have some kind of polish to the battle systems since you fight A LOT in the Elder Scrolls games. What if it was the opposite? What if TES had a great combat system, but the world was ugly, uninspired, and you could only walk?

You countered your own point about JRPG battle systems, but I will say that all JRPGs matched the description that you quoted me on before the fifth generation, but they progressivley improved since then.

Lastly, these are all obviously my opinions, so I won't be putting "imo" or "to me" in each one of my sentences.

Lastly lastly, I mentioned The Witcher 2 as one of the good WRPGs in one of my other posts in this thread.

A TES game with a world which was uninteresting to explore, but with good combat would be Dragon's Dogma wouldn't it? That is certainly how I have heard the game described, that or an action adventure game with an open world and AI buddies. I don't think games need to be all things too all people and there is more to gameplay than combat, many WRPGs often focus on things like player agency with choice in how story progresses and character development, exploration etc. That is not for everyone, but nothing ever is.

Really these days RPG genres are so broad it is impossible to really make blanket statements like that anyway. When games like Borderlands, The Witcher 2, Diablo 3, Skyrim, Mass Effect, XCOM: Enemy Unknown, World of Warcraft and Dragon Age can all be considered WRPGs and Dark Souls, Final Fantasy XIII, Valkyria Chronicles, Dragon's Dogma, Dragon Quest IX and Final Fantasy Tactics can all be considered JRPGs compairing them as genres in broad terms is pretty impossible.

I named 2 JRPGs from this generation which matched your description of most WRPGs. It is a rather shallow criticism anyway, mechanics are what really matter. I was trying to point out how silly a criticisim that was for a genre when compairing it to a genre that has lots of games that have the same "issue" rather than me saying that JRPGs have flimsy/flashy animations with numbers poping up is a bad thing. While also pointing out that most modern WRPGs don't actually match your description anyway. I like both JRPGs and WRPGs

You don't have to put "imo" at the end, you could word it like an oppinion tho. For example instead of "but they generally have no aesthetic appeal." you could write "I don't find most WRPGs to be aesthetically appealing" it's not hard. 



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adriane23 on 18 October 2012
Scoobes said:
adriane23 said:
Scoobes said:
adriane23 said:
gergroy said:
adriane23 said:
The poor play mechanics of WRPGs (PC RPGs as I like to call them) has always been my major complaint with them. 95% of WRPGs have TERRIBLE battle systems and at least half of them can't even get navigation around the game world correct. It always baffled me how so many people could dismiss this aspect of these games and still consider them great. And don't get me started on the amount of bugs.


interesting, I would say the same about JRPG's.  Especially if you compare recent JRPG's to recent WRPG's it would be the other way around.  

No it wouldn't. Most WRPGs of the past 6 years have generally sloppy play mechanics. The few that do have good gameplay mehcanics are the Mass Effect games, The Witcher games,  and Kingdoms of Amalur. The rest are just content to have you flail your arms wildly with a weapon in your hand.

EDIT: Dragon's Dogma, Demon's Souls, Dark SOuls, and even FFXIII have great play mechanics, because they've been doing that aspect of gaming very well for several decades now.

The only WRPGs this gen that I can think fit that description are Diablo III and possibly Dungeon Siege 3... which is because they're pure hack n' slash. Even the Elder Scrolls games aren't like that.

The Elder Scrolls games are exactly like that, and it was the main WRPG series I was referring to. The gameplay is to basically strafe and swing your sword wildly around or shoot magic. There's no style to the gameplay at all. Pure hack n' slash games like God of War, Bayonetta, DMC, etc. add style to the mindless button mashing. That's not to say that WRPG's are mindless hack n' slash games, but they generally have no aesthetic appeal. Your character basically just does some flimsy looking action at an enemy and numbers show up. 

If you play either Skyrim or Oblivion in the way you described at any normal difficulty then you'd die... a lot. Your descriptions are over simplifying the combat mechanics. In the same vein, I could argue that most JRPGs are just about selecting a menu command which would be grossly ignorant. I suppose your descriptions might be true after you've played and leveled up for ages and made/enchanted your equipment to the point of being godlike. But before that, you have to be careful in the way you engage in combat. It also completely ignores the stealth mechanic which alters the way you approach dungeons/enemies.

I'd also argue that the 3 hack n' slash games you mentioned actually have a lot of depth to their combat then mindless button bashing if played at any difficulty higher then Easy. I say this because I actually enjoy the mindless button bashing/style and have to play on Easy


EDIT: Soooo yeah, there was supposed to be a bunch of text and a Youtube video here.......



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Dark_Lord_2008 on 18 October 2012

JRPGs of today resemble little of the old traditional strategy/turn based JRPGs of previous generations. JRPGs of today have shifted towards WRPGs and resemble action based games.



Alphachris on 18 October 2012
Scoobes said:

Anyway, we agree that the most important factor of a JRPG is story and characters but we disagree as to how a game tells that story. Final Fantasy XIII for instance, for me, was just too reliant on cut scenes with little to expand on the storyline beyond them (other then the datalog which is a chore to read). If you don't enjoy the way the story is told in those cut scenes (as was the case with me for large chuncks of the game) then the enjoyment of the story is damaged. With little else

I know JRPGs have little room for story influence, but most have places to explore and mini quests/easter egg moments to expand on the mythology. Some can even help to further expand the background of certain characters. In FFVII for instance, there are a few moments where you can have mini-flashbacks that are completely optional but give a good amount of back story.

Take a look at these two videos and tell me if you see what they were doing:

Final Fantasy XIII - Intro/Train Scene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRAGlaJ3X3w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZAJz6W0dxM&feature=related

 

Final Fantasy used not only Mythology, they used our own history to make us think about the impacts of some historic events. Final Fantasy X used the Theme of self-sacrificing for the good of all and the consequences of blind belief (which is a complex moral topic, given the acts of terrorism we had to witness). Final Fantasy XII used Nabudis to make us think about the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Final Fantasy XIII should make us think about the Nazi Regime in Germany and the effects of Propaganda. Square managed to tel a story about these heavy topics without pathos. Thery were dealing these topics very sensible. The Japanese are truly masters of Storytelling. Their stories are not always loud and straightforward. They are discrete and want you to make you think for yourself about ethical issues. Final Fantasy XIII was one of the best stories on the whole PS3 if you take the time trying to understand what they want to tell you.

Take this scene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KidNeJuoLa0

 

Simply brilliant. Snow and Hope are saving the civilians from the Purge: They were sentenced to death. But as they see the stigma (a symbol like the "Judenstern") they fight against their saviors and even called for the military (the ones, who were leading them into the Purge train)... That is how strong the Propaganda is working. This is truly deep and mature storytelling. Maturity with the topic, not maturity by depicting violence, blood and gore.

You want backstory to immerse yourself? Have you ever thought about the life of normal people of the Third Reich while you were playing Final Fantasy XIII? Maybe you will change your mind about this game if you think about it.



runqvist on 18 October 2012
blkfish92 said:
Nem said:
WRPG's are generally more buggy, but make up for it with open-endness.

JRPG's are very tight on bugs but also tend to throw you in very linear paths you cant derive from. From a testing point of view, the JRPG is alot easier to optimise.


Hmm? I don't know about that, that more pertains to the new jrpgs, more specifically ff13.

Of course we cannot forgot the openess of Dark/Demon's Souls and Xenoblade.


Openness of xenoblade? Care to explain what do you feel as open on that game?



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blkfish92 on 18 October 2012
runqvist said:
blkfish92 said:
Nem said:
WRPG's are generally more buggy, but make up for it with open-endness.

JRPG's are very tight on bugs but also tend to throw you in very linear paths you cant derive from. From a testing point of view, the JRPG is alot easier to optimise.


Hmm? I don't know about that, that more pertains to the new jrpgs, more specifically ff13.

Of course we cannot forgot the openess of Dark/Demon's Souls and Xenoblade.


Openness of xenoblade? Care to explain what do you feel as open on that game?


Every landscape you're in you can explore on foot for countless minutes.



           

RenderMonk on 18 October 2012

JRPG's are my fav.



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Scoobes on 18 October 2012
Alphachris said:
Scoobes said:

Anyway, we agree that the most important factor of a JRPG is story and characters but we disagree as to how a game tells that story. Final Fantasy XIII for instance, for me, was just too reliant on cut scenes with little to expand on the storyline beyond them (other then the datalog which is a chore to read). If you don't enjoy the way the story is told in those cut scenes (as was the case with me for large chuncks of the game) then the enjoyment of the story is damaged. With little else

I know JRPGs have little room for story influence, but most have places to explore and mini quests/easter egg moments to expand on the mythology. Some can even help to further expand the background of certain characters. In FFVII for instance, there are a few moments where you can have mini-flashbacks that are completely optional but give a good amount of back story.

Take a look at these two videos and tell me if you see what they were doing:

Final Fantasy XIII - Intro/Train Scene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRAGlaJ3X3w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZAJz6W0dxM&feature=related

 

Final Fantasy used not only Mythology, they used our own history to make us think about the impacts of some historic events. Final Fantasy X used the Theme of self-sacrificing for the good of all and the consequences of blind belief (which is a complex moral topic, given the acts of terrorism we had to witness). Final Fantasy XII used Nabudis to make us think about the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Final Fantasy XIII should make us think about the Nazi Regime in Germany and the effects of Propaganda. Square managed to tel a story about these heavy topics without pathos. Thery were dealing these topics very sensible. The Japanese are truly masters of Storytelling. Their stories are not always loud and straightforward. They are discrete and want you to make you think for yourself about ethical issues. Final Fantasy XIII was one of the best stories on the whole PS3 if you take the time trying to understand what they want to tell you.

Take this scene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KidNeJuoLa0

 

Simply brilliant. Snow and Hope are saving the civilians from the Purge: They were sentenced to death. But as they see the stigma (a symbol like the "Judenstern") they fight against their saviors and even called for the military (the ones, who were leading them into the Purge train)... That is how strong the Propaganda is working. This is truly deep and mature storytelling. Maturity with the topic, not maturity by depicting violence, blood and gore.

You want backstory to immerse yourself? Have you ever thought about the life of normal people of the Third Reich while you were playing Final Fantasy XIII? Maybe you will change your mind about this game if you think about it.

I think you missed my point a little. My comment was on the way the story is told. First and foremost, Final Fantasy is a video game and it should use the advantages of the medium to convey the story. It doesn't matter that they tried to convey a deep story based on our history if they're simply copying the medium of film. Games have many tools and methods at their disposal to convey story and the themes you described above. Whilst JRPGs are known for cut scenes, they often also incorporate other elements (side quests, NPC character interaction, exploration) to enrich the story.

I suppose a good example would be to compare The Walking Dead TV show with the game. Both are critically acclaimed and present different stories, but both play to the strengths of their medium. The TV show uses quality acting and cinematography to great effect whilst the game plays to the strengths of the interactive medium by allowing the player to make key decisions on how to interact and influence other characters.

You also make it sound like these themes and methods are exclusive to JRPGs when plenty of video games even outside the RPG genre have dealt with major issues without resorting to copying the film industry. Half-Life 2 also uses our own history to create a dystopian world filled with propaganda but is all presented with you in complete control of your actions. The story is conveyed through your experience with the world and characters rather than film. Deus Ex Human Revolution intellectually poses questions regarding the ethics of transhumanism and the role and power of multinational corporations in globalization, yet it doesn't rely on cut-scenes to present these arguments. Witcher, Dragon Age and Mass Effect all raise questions concerning racism and prejudice but present it in ways that you can influence and actively makes you think about these issues. This is especially true with Witcher where the morality of these issues isn't always as straightforward as presented in many Final Fantasy games.

The themes presented in FFXIII aren't anything particularly special and the way they're presented mean those themes are often lost in passive dialogue. Many films and games cover similar themes and many of those games have engaged me more then FFXIII.




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ishiki on 18 October 2012

fuck i deletecd what I wrote editing it...



zarx on 18 October 2012

Sometimes I wonder why SE don't just get the Star Wars license



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