Actually, the games are 2 years apart... That's not comparing a recent game to an old game...

My laptop is crap for gaming. 6th gen games are about all it can handle.

That's not an acceptable excuse. The games should at least have some kind of polish to the battle systems since you fight A LOT in the Elder Scrolls games. What if it was the opposite? What if TES had a great combat system, but the world was ugly, uninspired, and you could only walk?

You countered your own point about JRPG battle systems, but I will say that all JRPGs matched the description that you quoted me on before the fifth generation, but they progressivley improved since then.

Lastly, these are all obviously my opinions, so I won't be putting "imo" or "to me" in each one of my sentences.

Lastly lastly, I mentioned The Witcher 2 as one of the good WRPGs in one of my other posts in this thread.

My bad. I forgot that the Wii was your console. If you are planning on getting a Wii U, then you can try Mass Effect 3, which would be the easiest WRPG to play since most of the stat choices are streamlined. (You only choose powers) Though the action based combat is very good and its a very fun ride. Plus the ending shouldn't upset you since you haven't been playing the games over 7 years. (It's still a better ending than most games, IMHO)

See, i didn't have problems choosing stat growth (except that i loaded Revan too heavily with Dexterity early on, and stupidly kept doing it after he stopped using ranged weapons). I did have problems choosing powers, since i had very little idea of what some of the powers did.

What Zarx says in his reply to you is very true, Planescape Torment is often regarded as one of the few examples of truly brilliant storytelling in games. The story is so highly regarded that the novel version of the story was included in the New York Times 100 novels of the century (last century ). You'd probably enjoy it quite a bit. The combat in the game is also mostly avoidable (there will be some combat though) depending on your stats so even if you don't like the battle system, there are ways to play through with minimal fighting..

Anyway, we agree that the most important factor of a JRPG is story and characters but we disagree as to how a game tells that story. Final Fantasy XIII for instance, for me, was just too reliant on cut scenes with little to expand on the storyline beyond them (other then the datalog which is a chore to read). If you don't enjoy the way the story is told in those cut scenes (as was the case with me for large chuncks of the game) then the enjoyment of the story is damaged. With little else

I know JRPGs have little room for story influence, but most have places to explore and mini quests/easter egg moments to expand on the mythology. Some can even help to further expand the background of certain characters. In FFVII for instance, there are a few moments where you can have mini-flashbacks that are completely optional but give a good amount of back story.

WRPGs on the other hand have gone the route of giving player influence in the story. It's technically closer to true old school RPGs although no video game can stay true to the pen and paper RPGs as they'd need a Dungeon Master and no AI is capable of pulling off that feat. The Elder scrolls games are a strange example because the story is meant to be tailored completely to the player experience. You have complete choice in how your personal story plays out, but I can understand that if you want to experience a tight, well contructed story, it can be disappointing.

Other WRPGs though can still give a story with great depth whilst still giving the player choice. Mass Effect 1-3 are a good example of this as is Deus Ex Human Revolution and Witcher 2. They all have storylines with depth and a range of interesting characters.

If you play either Skyrim or Oblivion in the way you described at any normal difficulty then you'd die... a lot. Your descriptions are over simplifying the combat mechanics. In the same vein, I could argue that most JRPGs are just about selecting a menu command which would be grossly ignorant. I suppose your descriptions might be true after you've played and leveled up for ages and made/enchanted your equipment to the point of being godlike. But before that, you have to be careful in the way you engage in combat. It also completely ignores the stealth mechanic which alters the way you approach dungeons/enemies.

I'd also argue that the 3 hack n' slash games you mentioned actually have a lot of depth to their combat then mindless button bashing if played at any difficulty higher then Easy. I say this because I actually enjoy the mindless button bashing/style and have to play on Easy

I find it hard to remember a game I got more immersed in the world and which and it'slore than Morrowind. I like many JRPGS (although I admitedly haven't layed many of the newer ones), but I fell more connected to the game world when I'm not being strictly directed (which happens in plenty WRPGS as well, sure).

Hmm? I don't know about that, that more pertains to the new jrpgs, more specifically ff13.

Of course we cannot forgot the openess of Dark/Demon's Souls and Xenoblade.

Pretty much every FF is more linear than a typical wrpg, atleast in the past... when FF7 was released on PC (where western RPG's used to be from). one of the major complaints with the PC (WRPG crowd at the time) was that it was too linear, and that square/eidos did a lazy port. Thats why it scored around an 8/10 average for PC at the time.

Not just level design either. WRPG's like planescape torment, baulder's gate weren't completly linear from a story perspective either, with cause and effect from actions. Again it's generally speaking. Dragon Quest V lets you pick your wife, FF7 let's your pick a date on the ferris wheel, FF10 lets you pick who rides on the snowmobile, Chrono Trigger lets you do a lot of crazy things, Tactics Ogre lets you majorly effects things like a WRPG.

And many WRPG's have become increasingly linear. There are JRPG's and WJRPG's that overlap in design, like say anachronox (WRPG that's like a JRPG), or demon soul's generally considered a (JRPG that's like a WRPG). For whatever reason this thread is about generalizations despite both sides bringing a variety of linear/non-linear styles.