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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Does Mario need to be so kiddy?

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happydolphin on 17 August 2012
morenoingrato said:

Why would you even compare them with SotC or Journey? They are totally different experiences that should not be compared.

TTYD is a lighthearted, charming story, it has it's radical twists and a very engaging narrative, characters don't need to have a dark background to be interesting. The characters and story in TTYD are excellent, they are not very mature, but they have a very distinctive charm to them, a charm that will make you follow their story with a strong passion. Just think about Vivian's relationship with her sisters, Bobery's backstory, Koops becoming a more mature turtle, Ms. Mowz mysterious personality and Tec's development as a machine who loves and feels.

In Mario RPG, characters are also very funny and interesting, Geno has a very great design and an amazing determination, Mallow has the greatest development of them all. And as simple as the story is, it's really fun to follow.

Well, yeah the RPG line would be the exception to this thread. I'm talking more along the lines of the mainstream games like Mario Tennis, Mario Party, Mario Kart, Super Mario 3D, Super Mario 2D.

But why wouldn't I compare them to SotC or Journey? What makes Mario so exempt from depth?

Apart from JWein's PoV, I haven't heard other legit ones yet, I'd like to hear yours.

Keep in mind Sal's post, it need not be a written story, it can be an unwritten story, told without words.



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JWeinCom on 17 August 2012
happydolphin said:
JWeinCom said:

I'd disagree about Shadow of the Colossus.  Shadow of the Colossus IS a story driven game.  While the story of Shadow is told in a very minimalistic fashion I feel that it is still front and center.  If it wasn't for the story, Shadow of the Colossus would have been a really mediocre experience.  

The key thing is this.  Team Ico decided to tell a story in a unique and creative way.  Mario games are not really trying to tell a story at all.

If you want to talk Disney, let's talk Mickey Mouse.  When Mickey started out he was a very mischievious character, and at times a bit of a pain in the ass.  As time went on, his rough edges were smoothed out.  He became friendly, cheerful, and helpful to a fault.  In general, corporate mascots are cheerful and bland faces that are designed to appeal to as broad of an audience as possible.  Your representative is generally the least objectionable person you could find.  And that's why Mario represents Nintendo.

In addition, I think story would be intrusive in a Mario game.  When I'm playing a Mario game, I simply want to pop it in and play.  Honestly, if I had to sit through more than five lines of dialogue, I'd get fidgety.  There are other games I play for story, but that's not what I'm looking for out of Mario.

But, why exactly is it that you feel modern Mario games are so kiddy?  I've been replaying Super Mario Bros 3 lately, I've played quite a bit of NSMB, and I've been playing Super Mario 3D Land regularly since its release.  I just don't see what makes Super Mario Bros 3 any more or less kid-like aside from the retro visuals, which are simply a product of its times. 

For Super Mario 3 versus 3D Land and NSMB, I'd mostly have to object against music, and ennemies. The ennemies in Mario 3 were fearsome, and the music was very catchy and engaging. I can't say the same about NSMB.

@story being intrusive. That's where Sal's post and SotC make so much sense. SotC is arguable since there is an intro, and between each colossus a hint, but no more. It's very non-intrusive. It could be even zero like the examples Sal gave (flower and journey). As such, a story can be told non-verbally, Sal's post described this best.

@icon bland. Okay, that is actually discussing the topic, and it makes alot of sense. But at the same time, hasn't there been a mascot or icon that was not bland, in contrast with both Mickey and Mario? I personally hate Mickey. 

I dunno about the enemies in Mario 3 being fearsome.  The only one that could really lay claim to that is that freaking giant fish, and *maybe* the evil sun.  Other than that, I wouldn't call anything in Mario fearsome.  As for the music, I agree that SMB3 has better music, but that's not a matter of "kiddy" or "adult".  It's just a matter of good music and not as good music.

Maybe I got off the radar with talk of intrusiveness, but the point is this.  Some games exist to convey a story, express an emotion, or something like that.  Mario does not exist for those purposes.  Mario is just about games for games sense.  Miyamato has said himself he's not trying to make art, and that's ok.  I wouldn't want That Game Company to start making Mario games anymore than I want Nintendo to start making quirky indy games.  I don't think every game necessarily needs to have a story.

If you're into Disney, look at Fantasia.  Fantasia is a movie that doesn't really have what we could conventially call a story, aside from the Sorceror's Apprentice scene.  It's just a series of beautiful images used as visualizations to moving pictures.  There is no real plot, no actual characters (Sorceror's Apprentice aside), no conflict, no climax, etc.  It's pretty much simply beauty for beauty's sake.  A strong plot is nice, but it's not always necessary.  In the case of Mario platformers, I don't think it would add much to the experience.  I don't need to know why I'm jumping on a turtle's head, I just want to enjoy the bouncy goodness.

I could get into a discussion of icons, but it's kind of hard to do because each company has different goals.  For example, when wrestling was trying to be edgy in the 90's, their mascot was Steve Austin, a beer swilling rebel.  When they made the shift to family friendly entertainment, they went to John Cena, who like Mario and Mickey became more and more bland as time rolled on.  In  general though, you don't want an edgy or complex mascot, unless you're trying to market an edgy or complex product.  

At any rate, I don't think you've really shown that Mario is kiddy.  You may feel that it is, and that's fine, but I don't find the series to be especially childish, particularly in comparison with older entries of the franchise.



happydolphin on 17 August 2012
JWeinCom said:

I dunno about the enemies in Mario 3 being fearsome.  The only one that could really lay claim to that is that freaking giant fish, and *maybe* the evil sun.  Other than that, I wouldn't call anything in Mario fearsome.  As for the music, I agree that SMB3 has better music, but that's not a matter of "kiddy" or "adult".  It's just a matter of good music and not as good music.

Maybe I got off the radar with talk of intrusiveness, but the point is this.  Some games exist to convey a story, express an emotion, or something like that.  Mario does not exist for those purposes.  Mario is just about games for games sense.  Miyamato has said himself he's not trying to make art, and that's ok.  I wouldn't want That Game Company to start making Mario games anymore than I want Nintendo to start making quirky indy games.  I don't think every game necessarily needs to have a story.

If you're into Disney, look at Fantasia.  Fantasia is a movie that doesn't really have what we could conventially call a story, aside from the Sorceror's Apprentice scene.  It's just a series of beautiful images used as visualizations to moving pictures.  There is no real plot, no actual characters (Sorceror's Apprentice aside), no conflict, no climax, etc.  It's pretty much simply beauty for beauty's sake.  A strong plot is nice, but it's not always necessary.  In the case of Mario platformers, I don't think it would add much to the experience.  I don't need to know why I'm jumping on a turtle's head, I just want to enjoy the bouncy goodness.

I could get into a discussion of icons, but it's kind of hard to do because each company has different goals.  For example, when wrestling was trying to be edgy in the 90's, their mascot was Steve Austin, a beer swilling rebel.  When they made the shift to family friendly entertainment, they went to John Cena, who like Mario and Mickey became more and more bland as time rolled on.  In  general though, you don't want an edgy or complex mascot, unless you're trying to market an edgy or complex product.  

At any rate, I don't think you've really shown that Mario is kiddy.  You may feel that it is, and that's fine, but I don't find the series to be especially childish, particularly in comparison with older entries of the franchise.

@Fantasia. Yup, and that's exactly what I was telling you when I said "read Sal's post". The story can be unwritten, with no words, like in Fantasia, just with beauty.

@showing Mario is kiddy. I tried to contrast it with the big Disney classics, but for some reason you don't see the contrast. What I mean by kiddy, is mostly cheesy. Like playschool. It only appeals to kids because it's cheesy. Something that appeals to kids & adults is never cheesy. So the posts at the beginning that said that Mario is all-inclusive were mostly wrong, and the Mario I'm proposing is more all inclusive. The Mario 3 music ties into this because it was of high quality, as compared to the more generic tunes of NSMB, as catchy as they may be. Contrast Clair de Lune with Ice Ice Baby and you'll understand right away.



Moren on 17 August 2012
happydolphin said:
morenoingrato said:

Why would you even compare them with SotC or Journey? They are totally different experiences that should not be compared.

TTYD is a lighthearted, charming story, it has it's radical twists and a very engaging narrative, characters don't need to have a dark background to be interesting. The characters and story in TTYD are excellent, they are not very mature, but they have a very distinctive charm to them, a charm that will make you follow their story with a strong passion. Just think about Vivian's relationship with her sisters, Bobery's backstory, Koops becoming a more mature turtle, Ms. Mowz mysterious personality and Tec's development as a machine who loves and feels.

In Mario RPG, characters are also very funny and interesting, Geno has a very great design and an amazing determination, Mallow has the greatest development of them all. And as simple as the story is, it's really fun to follow.

Well, yeah the RPG line would be the exception to this thread. I'm talking more along the lines of the mainstream games like Mario Tennis, Mario Party, Mario Kart, Super Mario 3D, Super Mario 2D.

But why wouldn't I compare them to SotC or Journey? What makes Mario so exempt from depth?

Apart from JWein's PoV, I haven't heard other legit ones yet, I'd like to hear yours.

Keep in mind Sal's post, it need not be a written story, it can be an unwritten story, told without words.

The Fifa, Gran Turismo and Madden games don't have any story at all, why would sport games need a story?

Because Mario was never about depth in the first place, and I did give you big example of depth in the RPG series, I think you are mistaking depth with tragedy.

Mario isn't intended to have a great story, it's a save the princess game, and the actual focus is the platforming.

You want a random story example, okay.

In Mario Galaxy, many Toads were left homeless from the Mushroom Kingdom attacks, many probably perished in the fire and destruction. The Lumas where about to freeze to death, many probably did.

Rosalina is condemned to eternal loneliness in space, without the hope to ever reunite with her loved ones, they are probably dead by then.

The people and servants in the castle are nowhere to be seen at the end, I guess they were slaughtered by Bowser.



JWeinCom on 17 August 2012
happydolphin said:

@Fantasia. Yup, and that's exactly what I was telling you when I said "read Sal's post". The story can be unwritten, with no words, like in Fantasia, just with beauty.

@showing Mario is kiddy. I tried to contrast it with the big Disney classics, but for some reason you don't see the contrast. What I mean by kiddy, is mostly cheesy. Like playschool. It only appeals to kids because it's cheesy. Something that appeals to kids & adults is never cheesy. So the posts at the beginning that said that Mario is all-inclusive were mostly wrong, and the Mario I'm proposing is more all inclusive. The Mario 3 music ties into this because it was of high quality, as compared to the more generic tunes of NSMB, as catchy as they may be. Contrast Clair de Lune with Ice Ice Baby and you'll understand right away.

Except I don't think Fantasia really has a story to it.  It's not unwritten, it's just bare bones.  

I don't think Disney classics is a good analogy because I don't really see the comparison between The Lion King and Mario.  I get what you're saying, that you don't feel childish watching the Lion King and you do when playing Mario, but I just don't really see why.  

As for Claire De Lune vs Ice Ice Baby or Mario 3 music vs NSMB music, I think that's more of a matter of quality vs adult/childish.  Mario 3's music is great, but I don't think it's any more or less childish.  The music of both games is similar in tone and feel, composers just did a better job with SMB3.  Plus, look at Mario Galaxy 1/2, which are also modern Mario games.  Both of them feature absolutely outstanding music.  I'd actually say Galaxy has better music than SMB3.

My question to you is *why* exactly do we need more story in Mario games?  Why do we need a Mario game to tug at our heart strings?  I have Braid.  I have  SoTC.  I have Catherine, I have Killer 7, I have BioShock and so on so forth.  I have plenty of games that convey grand ideas, big emotions, and challenge conventions.  I have games that I can have a rich and engaging intellectual experience with.  And, just as importantly, I have games where I could spit fireballs at turtles.

To me, complaining about the lack of story in Mario would be like complaining that their aren't enough enemies to jump on in Journey.  ThatGameCompany is not trying to make a pick up and play adventure that appeals to the masses, and Nintendo is not trying to make a game that makes me question the meaning of life.  I'd rather have two polar opposite games that focus on doing what they do best than have two games that meet somewhere in the middle.  



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happydolphin on 18 August 2012
JWeinCom said:

Except I don't think Fantasia really has a story to it.  It's not unwritten, it's just bare bones.  

I don't think Disney classics is a good analogy because I don't really see the comparison between The Lion King and Mario.  I get what you're saying, that you don't feel childish watching the Lion King and you do when playing Mario, but I just don't really see why.  

As for Claire De Lune vs Ice Ice Baby or Mario 3 music vs NSMB music, I think that's more of a matter of quality vs adult/childish.  Mario 3's music is great, but I don't think it's any more or less childish.  The music of both games is similar in tone and feel, composers just did a better job with SMB3.  Plus, look at Mario Galaxy 1/2, which are also modern Mario games.  Both of them feature absolutely outstanding music.  I'd actually say Galaxy has better music than SMB3.

My question to you is *why* exactly do we need more story in Mario games?  Why do we need a Mario game to tug at our heart strings?  I have Braid.  I have  SoTC.  I have Catherine, I have Killer 7, I have BioShock and so on so forth.  I have plenty of games that convey grand ideas, big emotions, and challenge conventions.  I have games that I can have a rich and engaging intellectual experience with.  And, just as importantly, I have games where I could spit fireballs at turtles.

To me, complaining about the lack of story in Mario would be like complaining that their aren't enough enemies to jump on in Journey.  ThatGameCompany is not trying to make a pick up and play adventure that appeals to the masses, and Nintendo is not trying to make a game that makes me question the meaning of life.  I'd rather have two polar opposite games that focus on doing what they do best than have two games that meet somewhere in the middle.  

I wouldn't say Fantasia is bare bones, that would be an understatement, but alas, it's a minor point. The truth is fantasia is grand in music and animation, and has moments of despair, michief, innocence and comedy. It has a wide range of moods, none of which are cliche.

Why I see Mario as childish, maybe music can best describe:

As an example with this piece, the choice of instruments is a mistake, it makes it "la-la", like a baby's chime. There are more examples. Mario's voice acting in Sunshine, Peach's "Mario!!" cry, it's all just cheesy.

Galaxy on the whole certainly hasbetter music than SM3, I won't argue that, the Galaxy music in general, bar some exceptions, is magnifiscent. I can't say the same about NSMB music.

You ask me why, but I ask you the same question I asked Moreno, why not? Why must one (pick up and play) negate the other (proper atmosphere and emotion)? Truth is, it musn't. It is possible to have a pick up and play game, which also has a mood that better suits human emotion. We are not "happy" all the time, so it doesn't feel right.

Again,I'm not advocating for a game that makes you question the meaning of life. I'm just asking for something that appeals more to all, and is more relatable, while keeping all the other excellent qualities in a Mario game.



sales2099 on 18 August 2012

The kiddy appeal is what hooks the kids into Nintendo systems. I was one such example when I was one.

By the time we grow up, Nintendo gets more kids to take our place with the same approach.

Human beings reproduce at a fast rate.....Nintendo depends on that fact of life to stay in business lol



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

JWeinCom on 18 August 2012
happydolphin said:
JWeinCom said:

 

I wouldn't say Fantasia is bare bones, that would be an understatement, but alas, it's a minor point. The truth is fantasia is grand in music and animation, and has moments of despair, michief, innocence and comedy. It has a wide range of moods, none of which are cliche.

Why I see Mario as childish, maybe music can best describe:

As an example with this piece, the choice of instruments is a mistake, it makes it "la-la", like a baby's chime. There are more examples. Mario's voice acting in Sunshine, Peach's "Mario!!" cry, it's all just cheesy.

Galaxy on the whole certainly hasbetter music than SM3, I won't argue that, the Galaxy music in general, bar some exceptions, is magnifiscent. I can't say the same about NSMB music.

You ask me why, but I ask you the same question I asked Moreno, why not? Why must one (pick up and play) negate the other (proper atmosphere and emotion)? Truth is, it musn't. It is possible to have a pick up and play game, which also has a mood that better suits human emotion. We are not "happy" all the time, so it doesn't feel right.

Again,I'm not advocating for a game that makes you question the meaning of life. I'm just asking for something that appeals more to all, and is more relatable, while keeping all the other excellent qualities in a Mario game.


I don't see why the music would be considered any more childish than the intro to the Nutcracker Suite

 

By the same token, we're not always violent and agressive, so why not add a dandelion picking scene to gears of war?  Why not add some humourous comic relief to Shadow Of The Colossus?  How about giving Wander Mushu the Dragon as a sidekick?  Gears of War is about one speciffic aspect of human existence and Mario is about another.

So as for why not, it's not what I want out of my Mario game.  Am I happy all of the time?  Of course not.  But when I'm not happy, I'll often pop Mario Galaxy into the Wii and pick up a Wiimote.  I'm not looking to Mario for an empathetic.  I'm looking for a simple, bright, and cheerful piece of escapism to take my mind off of my troubles.  And to me, the relentless optomism and cheer is part of what I love about Mario.  It has a purity, innocence, and playfulness to it that can't exist in reality.  The real world is full of pain, death, heartache, and all sorts of negativity.  It's nice to have a little virtual place where none of that exists <3 Mario. 

Edit: Not sure how to embed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxBJYSU3RJ8



Kasz216 on 18 August 2012
happydolphin said:
Kasz216 said:

Pretty much all of them.  All of the original cartoons are considered classics, not just the movies.

I think you've got a very dim and narrow view of american animated culture.

Possibly. The original cartoons are considered classics, like Bugs bunny, maybe a little less. I'm talking about another level of classic, the unforgettable full-feature films.

They are in another league imho.

If that's your stance, I think your going to need a new one, since Mario games tend to be in that class when it comes to videogames.  I wouldn't be surprised Super Mario Galaxy becomes the most remembered game of the generation 10 years from now.

Honestly, it just seems like you just don't get it.

A lot of people don't get the classic Disney movies either.



lilbroex on 18 August 2012

Apparently, if you aren't spewing profanity and severing peoples heads in HD then the game is kiddy.

How did gaming ideals become so polarized? Being family friendly and being kiddy are two different things

Dora the Explorer is Kiddy. Mario is not.