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JWeinCom on 17 August 2012
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happydolphin said:
JWeinCom said:

I'd disagree about Shadow of the Colossus.  Shadow of the Colossus IS a story driven game.  While the story of Shadow is told in a very minimalistic fashion I feel that it is still front and center.  If it wasn't for the story, Shadow of the Colossus would have been a really mediocre experience.  

The key thing is this.  Team Ico decided to tell a story in a unique and creative way.  Mario games are not really trying to tell a story at all.

If you want to talk Disney, let's talk Mickey Mouse.  When Mickey started out he was a very mischievious character, and at times a bit of a pain in the ass.  As time went on, his rough edges were smoothed out.  He became friendly, cheerful, and helpful to a fault.  In general, corporate mascots are cheerful and bland faces that are designed to appeal to as broad of an audience as possible.  Your representative is generally the least objectionable person you could find.  And that's why Mario represents Nintendo.

In addition, I think story would be intrusive in a Mario game.  When I'm playing a Mario game, I simply want to pop it in and play.  Honestly, if I had to sit through more than five lines of dialogue, I'd get fidgety.  There are other games I play for story, but that's not what I'm looking for out of Mario.

But, why exactly is it that you feel modern Mario games are so kiddy?  I've been replaying Super Mario Bros 3 lately, I've played quite a bit of NSMB, and I've been playing Super Mario 3D Land regularly since its release.  I just don't see what makes Super Mario Bros 3 any more or less kid-like aside from the retro visuals, which are simply a product of its times. 

For Super Mario 3 versus 3D Land and NSMB, I'd mostly have to object against music, and ennemies. The ennemies in Mario 3 were fearsome, and the music was very catchy and engaging. I can't say the same about NSMB.

@story being intrusive. That's where Sal's post and SotC make so much sense. SotC is arguable since there is an intro, and between each colossus a hint, but no more. It's very non-intrusive. It could be even zero like the examples Sal gave (flower and journey). As such, a story can be told non-verbally, Sal's post described this best.

@icon bland. Okay, that is actually discussing the topic, and it makes alot of sense. But at the same time, hasn't there been a mascot or icon that was not bland, in contrast with both Mickey and Mario? I personally hate Mickey. 

I dunno about the enemies in Mario 3 being fearsome.  The only one that could really lay claim to that is that freaking giant fish, and *maybe* the evil sun.  Other than that, I wouldn't call anything in Mario fearsome.  As for the music, I agree that SMB3 has better music, but that's not a matter of "kiddy" or "adult".  It's just a matter of good music and not as good music.

Maybe I got off the radar with talk of intrusiveness, but the point is this.  Some games exist to convey a story, express an emotion, or something like that.  Mario does not exist for those purposes.  Mario is just about games for games sense.  Miyamato has said himself he's not trying to make art, and that's ok.  I wouldn't want That Game Company to start making Mario games anymore than I want Nintendo to start making quirky indy games.  I don't think every game necessarily needs to have a story.

If you're into Disney, look at Fantasia.  Fantasia is a movie that doesn't really have what we could conventially call a story, aside from the Sorceror's Apprentice scene.  It's just a series of beautiful images used as visualizations to moving pictures.  There is no real plot, no actual characters (Sorceror's Apprentice aside), no conflict, no climax, etc.  It's pretty much simply beauty for beauty's sake.  A strong plot is nice, but it's not always necessary.  In the case of Mario platformers, I don't think it would add much to the experience.  I don't need to know why I'm jumping on a turtle's head, I just want to enjoy the bouncy goodness.

I could get into a discussion of icons, but it's kind of hard to do because each company has different goals.  For example, when wrestling was trying to be edgy in the 90's, their mascot was Steve Austin, a beer swilling rebel.  When they made the shift to family friendly entertainment, they went to John Cena, who like Mario and Mickey became more and more bland as time rolled on.  In  general though, you don't want an edgy or complex mascot, unless you're trying to market an edgy or complex product.  

At any rate, I don't think you've really shown that Mario is kiddy.  You may feel that it is, and that's fine, but I don't find the series to be especially childish, particularly in comparison with older entries of the franchise.