Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Does Mario need to be so kiddy?

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BasilZero said:
happydolphin said:
milkyjoe said:
Mario Sunshine is the only truly 'kiddy' Mario game to me. And the irony is it holds that title because they tried to listen to people who said it needed to grow up a bit.

They added voice acting, which is a popular request in Nintendo games amongst 'mature' types, and it was some of the worst voice acting seen since the CD-i era.

They added depth to the story, but it was utter nonsense. Plot twist, Peach is Bowser Jr's mother! Apparently she forgot that she gave birth to a koopa. You'd think that's the kind of thing that someone would remember, but there we go.

All that was scaled back in the Galaxy games, and then scaled back even further in 3D Land.

Sheer incompetence, as it were, imho... :( That's what I'm talking about, good post.

For some reason I cant find his post but I could of sworn that Bowser said at the end of Super Mario Sunshine that he lied to Bowser Jr. to motivate him and Bowser Jr himself admitted that he knew it was a lie

@Peach being his mother I mean.

P.S. The thing I found kiddy and hated it was Bowser's voice, it was pure garbage, glad they made him mute (in terms of voice in later games).

Yeah, I know that, but we were expected to believe it for a sizeable chunk of the game.

Those kind of plotlines are only plausible to begin with when there's a doubt over the father. A woman knows when she's given birth to something, be it human, mushroom, or koopa.



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happydolphin said:


Italics made me laugh :D

Okay, let me get more specific. Have you ever played Shadow of the Colossus?

There's a game with very little story, yet for some reason it had a GREAT untold story. There is so much you are thinking must have happened in that realm, yet little of the story is told. And like Mario, it doesn't need a story because you're going from Colossus to Colossus. However, like Sal gave in his example, in Journey (which I have yet to play), there is a great untold story, told with the dynamics of the characters, with the environmental objects and worlds you cross, told by the swaying music. It doesn't even need a story that the game conveys an emotion. (@Xxain, read that it'll answer your story whore question).

The last paragraph is one that troubles me the most and I'll tell you why. Mario is a character that represents the company as a whole. It's the icon of the company, and close enough to being the icon of the industry. Should a character with such a great reflection convey vaccuity? Or should he convey emotion? I believe emotion.

When Super Mario offers themes that are limited to children, it alienates the folks who are older who would also like to enjoy it. As such, many in this thread say it is the example of a game that is not age restrictive, but it is the exact opposite, it restricts to kids. On the flipside, nothing in Disney movies makes me, as an adult, and as a child in the past, want to shut it off. Rather, I want to stay and watch it.

That's the all-encompassing quality a Mario game should have, as the icon of Nintendo. Anything else would be selling it short, to make a pun. ;)


I'd disagree about Shadow of the Colossus.  Shadow of the Colossus IS a story driven game.  While the story of Shadow is told in a very minimalistic fashion I feel that it is still front and center.  If it wasn't for the story, Shadow of the Colossus would have been a really mediocre experience.  

The key thing is this.  Team Ico decided to tell a story in a unique and creative way.  Mario games are not really trying to tell a story at all.

If you want to talk Disney, let's talk Mickey Mouse.  When Mickey started out he was a very mischievious character, and at times a bit of a pain in the ass.  As time went on, his rough edges were smoothed out.  He became friendly, cheerful, and helpful to a fault.  In general, corporate mascots are cheerful and bland faces that are designed to appeal to as broad of an audience as possible.  Your representative is generally the least objectionable person you could find.  And that's why Mario represents Nintendo.

In addition, I think story would be intrusive in a Mario game.  When I'm playing a Mario game, I simply want to pop it in and play.  Honestly, if I had to sit through more than five lines of dialogue, I'd get fidgety.  There are other games I play for story, but that's not what I'm looking for out of Mario.

But, why exactly is it that you feel modern Mario games are so kiddy?  I've been replaying Super Mario Bros 3 lately, I've played quite a bit of NSMB, and I've been playing Super Mario 3D Land regularly since its release.  I just don't see what makes Super Mario Bros 3 any more or less kid-like aside from the retro visuals, which are simply a product of its times. 



happydolphin said:
Kasz216 said:

Exactly how serious, gritty and straight laced can a game about a plumber fighting a dinosaur turtle to save a princess of sentient mushrooms be?

The repeated plot over and over again more or less intentionally made the series more cartoony as bowser went from "Serious thread" in the first one, to ineffectual and jealous as shown by more and more failures...

and ESPECIALLY established by Mario RPG.

Essentially the repeated nature of the series established that this is some kind of "working norm".

Also... if such a thing bothers you... that's really more of a personal issue, then universally alienating

To quote CS Lewis.

“Critics who treat ‘adult’ as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”

Great post, but I will turn C.S. Lewis on the head to prove my point. Did he ever considered children as vastly different than adults in that they could just no comprehend adult concepts?

The children in Narnia couldn't understand why adults concerned themselves with needless things. That would be the likes of the pulp we are fed like the GoW games or the Batman and X-men craze and reboots, ad nauseam. I'm not talking about that adult. I'm talking about adult that children and adults alike can enjoy, case in point, like Chronicles of Narnia, an excellent example.

This isn't just personal opinion, I know there are others who feel as I do about Mario.


and yet clearly there are more people who feel otherwise, hence it's sales.  So it is really more of a personal problem.  I mean, bad example, but i know more then one gambling addict.  It's still a personal problem each person grips with.

Heck, look at all the internet love with the bronies.   As far as I can tell it's unironic, actually watch and enjoy said show like mostly.

 

Mario's childishness is really part of it's charm at this point.  Bright colors, ineffectual funny villians, the atmosphere more or less replaces what a deeper story normally would.

I don't see any difference between say Mario or Phineas and Ferb for example.  Tons of adults enjoy that show.  More then kids I think.

Mario IS the kind of game adults can, and do enjoy.  Just not one you personally enjoy.



Kasz216 said:

and yet clearly there are more people who feel otherwise, hence it's sales.  So it is really more of a personal problem.  I mean, bad example, but i know more then one gambling addict.  It's still a personal problem each person grips with.

Heck, look at all the internet love with the bronies.   As far as I can tell it's unironic, actually watch and enjoy said show like mostly.

 

Mario's childishness is really part of it's charm at this point.  Bright colors, ineffectual funny villians, the atmosphere more or less replaces what a deeper story normally would.

I don't see any difference between say Mario or Phineas and Ferb for example.  Tons of adults enjoy that show.  More then kids I think.

Mario IS the kind of game adults can, and do enjoy.  Just not one you personally enjoy.

Now compare that with Disney movies, which almost all adults will admit are timeless classics (the main ones). It paints a rather different picture I would say. Phineas and Ferb is not in the same league.



JWeinCom said:

I'd disagree about Shadow of the Colossus.  Shadow of the Colossus IS a story driven game.  While the story of Shadow is told in a very minimalistic fashion I feel that it is still front and center.  If it wasn't for the story, Shadow of the Colossus would have been a really mediocre experience.  

The key thing is this.  Team Ico decided to tell a story in a unique and creative way.  Mario games are not really trying to tell a story at all.

If you want to talk Disney, let's talk Mickey Mouse.  When Mickey started out he was a very mischievious character, and at times a bit of a pain in the ass.  As time went on, his rough edges were smoothed out.  He became friendly, cheerful, and helpful to a fault.  In general, corporate mascots are cheerful and bland faces that are designed to appeal to as broad of an audience as possible.  Your representative is generally the least objectionable person you could find.  And that's why Mario represents Nintendo.

In addition, I think story would be intrusive in a Mario game.  When I'm playing a Mario game, I simply want to pop it in and play.  Honestly, if I had to sit through more than five lines of dialogue, I'd get fidgety.  There are other games I play for story, but that's not what I'm looking for out of Mario.

But, why exactly is it that you feel modern Mario games are so kiddy?  I've been replaying Super Mario Bros 3 lately, I've played quite a bit of NSMB, and I've been playing Super Mario 3D Land regularly since its release.  I just don't see what makes Super Mario Bros 3 any more or less kid-like aside from the retro visuals, which are simply a product of its times. 

For Super Mario 3 versus 3D Land and NSMB, I'd mostly have to object against music, and ennemies. The ennemies in Mario 3 were fearsome, and the music was very catchy and engaging. I can't say the same about NSMB.

@story being intrusive. That's where Sal's post and SotC make so much sense. SotC is arguable since there is an intro, and between each colossus a hint, but no more. It's very non-intrusive. It could be even zero like the examples Sal gave (flower and journey). As such, a story can be told non-verbally, Sal's post described this best.

@icon bland. Okay, that is actually discussing the topic, and it makes alot of sense. But at the same time, hasn't there been a mascot or icon that was not bland, in contrast with both Mickey and Mario? I personally hate Mickey. 



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happydolphin said:
Kasz216 said:

and yet clearly there are more people who feel otherwise, hence it's sales.  So it is really more of a personal problem.  I mean, bad example, but i know more then one gambling addict.  It's still a personal problem each person grips with.

Heck, look at all the internet love with the bronies.   As far as I can tell it's unironic, actually watch and enjoy said show like mostly.

 

Mario's childishness is really part of it's charm at this point.  Bright colors, ineffectual funny villians, the atmosphere more or less replaces what a deeper story normally would.

I don't see any difference between say Mario or Phineas and Ferb for example.  Tons of adults enjoy that show.  More then kids I think.

Mario IS the kind of game adults can, and do enjoy.  Just not one you personally enjoy.

Now compare that with Disney movies, which almost all adults will admit are timeless classics (the main ones). It paints a rather different picture I would say. Phineas and Ferb is not in the same league.


I wouldn't say Mario is different from the Disney movies either.

Furthemore, Disney Cartoons are considered classics.  Which, Micky Mouse is practically the prototypical Mario.  Right up to where the latest Micky Mouse game essentially tried to copy Mario back.



Kasz216 said:

I wouldn't say Mario is different from the Disney movies either.

Furthemore, Disney Cartoons are considered classics.  Which, Micky Mouse is practically the prototypical Mario.  Right up to where the latest Micky Mouse game essentially tried to copy Mario back.

Which Mickey Mouse classic would you be thinking of? I ask because the only one I know is Fantasia 2000, and that's nothing like Mario, and conveys a whole other level of emotion.



i dont understand what do you mean by kiddy
when i was 13 i was more interested in playing Turok 2 and Resident evil
when i was 18 i was more interested in playing Super Mario sunshine and Zelda WW
Video games are mostly for kids, adults dont really have time to play much,

if you mean kiddy looking and themed, i wouldnt call it kiddy but appealing to every age group, including adults like me, and you...so not kiddy at all



DieAppleDie said:
i dont understand what do you mean by kiddy
when i was 13 i was more interested in playing Turok 2 and Resident evil
when i was 18 i was more interested in playing Super Mario sunshine and Zelda WW
Video games are mostly for kids, adults dont really have time to play much,

if you mean kiddy looking and themed, i wouldnt call it kiddy but appealing to every age group, including adults like me, and you...so not kiddy at all

I'm not talking about violence, i'm talking about emotion and themes that don't alienate adults. I gave the example of Disney classics like Lion King and Aladin, in contrast with general Mickey Mouse and new Mario (Woo hoo!).

Little Big Planet is cooler than Mario, as an example. Mario is basically a big happy-happy dushe, that's his persona. Most disney characters have attitudes and stories we all, kids and adults, can relate to.

That's what I mean by kiddy, I mean only for small kids, not for kids and adults alike. I don't mean Mortal Kombat adult, don't get me wrong.



happydolphin said:
Kasz216 said:

I wouldn't say Mario is different from the Disney movies either.

Furthemore, Disney Cartoons are considered classics.  Which, Micky Mouse is practically the prototypical Mario.  Right up to where the latest Micky Mouse game essentially tried to copy Mario back.

Which Mickey Mouse classic would you be thinking of? I ask because the only one I know is Fantasia 2000, and that's nothing like Mario, and conveys a whole other level of emotion.

Pretty much all of them.  All of the original cartoons are considered classics, not just the movies.

I think you've got a very dim and narrow view of american animated culture.