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Alby_da_Wolf said:
Sacrilege! Sacrificing fried chicken for political correctness violates one of the most important human rights!

It kind of is though. They guy is a restaurant owner, it doesn't matter if it's a big resto or sells fast-food. What matters is that he was stripped of the right to open shop because of his religious belief.

Had this been a christian region denying rights to a company supporting LGBT, imagine the backlash!

So that goes to show you the hypocracy of the debate, as well as the failure of democracy and freedom of belief and lifestyle.



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theprof00 said:
happydolphin said:
bouzane said:

So, you quote me teachings from Jewish texts that predate the existence of Christ?

Yes, and? It was in answer to this... "Traditionally marriage treated the woman as property and wedlock was merely the exchange of goods to ensure exclusive sexual access to the newly acquired property. Are we not supposed to advance as a society?"

Don't bore me.

 You quote me a line that states homosexuality is abnormal while making no reference to same-sex marriage?

I have no idea what you're talking about... the abnormality was about Paul, though not walking with Christ, a man who martyred Christians, was a late apostle. I don't have the time nor the patience to explain this to you. Ultimately what all this means is that biblically speaking his words are divinely inspired as if the words of Christ himself (as they are animated by the same spirit). So since Paul teaches that homosexuality is against the will of God, your question was "Where does Christ condemn any aspect of homosexuality", I provided you with an answer. But I'm closing the door because I fear I will offend some friends and I don't have the patience to go over these basics. Please do your own research on the matter.

 Again, there is no basis for opposing same-sex marriage in the teachings of Christ.

See above.

 Also, It doesn't matter what the Bible claims, marriage was never a religious institution and the Church has no right trying to define it or use it as a political tool.

Who gives you the right to make such a bold claim. The church certainly has a right to define it, as it is their opinion, their belief, their point of view, as much as it is your opinion that marriage can support same-sex relationships. Stop being hypocritical.

 If any religious group could claim the right to define marriage it would be the Jews and three out of four branches of the Jewish faith support same-sex marriage.

Indeed, and they are not following the word of God. Everyone has a right to claim a definition, not all are correct. There is ultimately only 1 true definition, no matter how broad it may be.

 Again, opposing same-sex marriage has no moral basis, only bigotry and ignorance. 

This sentence is plagued with what it condemns. I have stated my views without being neither ignorant nor a bigot. Proof that this claim is false, by counter-example.

As such, there is no "opportunism and stomping on freedom of faith" as there is no foundation for such views in either the Christian or Jewish faiths (with the exception of Ultra-Orthodox Judiasm).

Even if there were no foundation of such a view in the Christian or the Jewish faith, as an individual with a right to my morality and beliefs, there is "opportunism and stomping on freedom of faith". As such, the stomping on freedom of faith is not dependent on any one religion, be it named or not.

 Please follow the link I provided, you can learn about the teachings of Christ unadulterated by the Judiasm and Paganism that permeate the "Christian" Bible.

My above reply explains this. Also, Christ's teaching as is "A man shall leave his father and his ? (mother) and be united with his ? (wife)."

Mosaic: Gen 2: 24.

Jesus: Mark 10:7

Paul the apostle: Ephesians 5:31

FoS Happy

What's wrong, can't you point out where Christ denounces same-sex marriage? He may have referred to marriage as a man being with a woman, but did he also extend the benefits that they currently enjoy? Did he ever say that the married should be held in higher regard than the gay? Because that's our system now. One in which the married enjoy special benefits over even the single people! Married people pay LESS taxes than I do simply because they are married. There is obviously a flaw in this system.

And Christ is literally nowhere in the argument. He never said married should be above, nor did he say gays should be condemned, nor did he say gays shouldn't enjoy the same rights. In fact, he's said nearly the opposite of all those things.

"“Blessed are the poor in spirit,

for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4Blessed are those who mourn,

for they will be comforted.

5Blessed are the meek,

for they will inherit the earth.

6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,

for they will be filled.

7Blessed are the merciful,

for they will be shown mercy.

8Blessed are the pure in heart,

for they will see God.

9Blessed are the peacemakers,

for they will be called sons of God.

 


10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,

for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

 

Bolded is no christian who is against gay rights.

Italicized are the real persecuted here.


Peace out.

Wow... first of all this whole thing is retarded. They aren't "Hating" on anyone or anything. All the guy did was give his personal opinion based on his religion, which is his right. He NEVER said anything about not allowing gays to eat at Chik-fil-A or even work there or any other means of discrimination.

Secondly, married people pay less taxes based on the TOTAL INCOME. It is common sense. If married people have a combined income of $50k they will pay LESS TAXES on that income than someone who is single making $50k because obviously the income is being split amongst twice as many people! Do they pay half the taxes that you do as a single person? NO!? OMG THAT'S NOT RIGHT, THEY ARE BEING TAXED TOO MUCH IT IS NOT FAIR! See how ridiculous that argument was?

There is something entirely different than being against a certain type of lifestyle and being outwardly preventative towards a lifestyle. Most Christians based on their religion (backed up by the Bible denouncing gay relationships) believe that being gay is wrong, but so is any other sin and no sin carries any more weight than another. All sin is sin. Now I am not saying that being gay is equal to murdering someone or anythig else hanus. Don't dare put those false words in my mouth. I am just saying any amount of sin will deny entry to heaven without belief in a savior. Any/all sin can be forgiven, I personally believe.

Now, without getting too religious, no one truly knows what causes someone to be gay whether it is genetic, chemical imbalances, personal choice, or just plain emotions and quite frankly I don't care. As a true Christian myself, I am against gay behavior as a personal belief, BUT I will never ever persecute or discriminate against a gay individual. I will treat them the same as anyone else and I will never try to push my beliefs down their throats. After all, it is not our job to judge.

So while Chik-fil-A's president said some things that are sure to upset people, I do not think ANYTHING in the company's practices has discriminated or given hate towards gay people. It was simple his religion based opinion and nothing more. It has just as much merit as anyone supporting gay marriage as well.

Peace out.



Cueil said:
who cares... I'm anti-special-rights you don't get special rights because you choose to be different


Uhm, the LGBT are not asking for special rights honey, they're asking for the same amount of rights. Plus you don't 'choose' to be gay, you're born gay.



Here is the excerpt from Joe Moreno on the Chicago Tribune:

Ald. Joe Moreno:

By Proco “Joe” Moreno

July 26, 2012

Home Depot in the 2500 block of North Elston Avenue wants to sell a piece of its land so that a Chick-fil-A restaurant can open in the 1st Ward, where I am alderman. It would be the fast-food chain's first "stand-alone" Chicago restaurant. But to subdivide the land, the companies need my approval.

Initially, I had some traffic concerns with their plan. But then I heard the bigoted, homophobic comments by Chick-fil-A President Dan Cathy, who recently came out against same-sex marriage.

There are consequences for one's actions, statements and beliefs. Because of this man's ignorance, I will deny Chick-fil-A a permit to open a restaurant in my ward.

I've been in discussions with the company for the past nine months. Every time we met, I brought up my concerns that the company supported a homophobic agenda. My concerns were based on financial contributions made by WinShape Foundation, Chick-fil-A's charitable endeavor, to anti-gay groups. I was repeatedly told by company officials that "we (Chick-fil-A) are not political" and that the company "had no political agenda." Just recently, an attorney for the chain tried to convince me of Chick-fil-A's benevolence. During each meeting, I challenged the company to change its ways. Although I thought we had made some progress, Cathy's anti-gay comments made it abundantly clear what the company's true stance is toward equal rights.

In an interview with the Biblical Recorder, he was asked about the company's fervent support of the traditional family. "Well, guilty as charged," he said. "We are very much supportive of the family — the biblical definition of the family unit. We are a family-owned business, a family-led business, and we are married to our first wives. We give God thanks for that."

Obviously, Cathy has the right to believe, say and give money to whatever cause he wants. But my belief in equality is resolute, and if I were to take the easy way out and turn a blind eye to his remarks, I would be turning my back on the principles I stand for.

Chick-fil-A did put out a damage-control response, which was basically worthless lip service. If company officials read this commentary, they most likely will come back with the trite corporate accusation, which is rolled out every time a business has a problem with government: "Ald. Moreno doesn't care about jobs." Nothing could be further from the truth. I am proud of my track record on promoting and assisting businesses to open and grow in the 1st Ward. I would argue that a company with such overtly bigoted beliefs is bad for business and jobs in the 1st Ward, not the reverse.

I represent a diverse, forward-thinking community, and I'm sure the majority of 1st Warders find Cathy's comments and attitude repugnant. Even if I did give Chick-fil-A the go-ahead, I suspect many in my community wouldn't spend their dollars there.

I know my decision may anger or annoy some people. It's just a chicken place, they will say. But I believe Chick-fil-A should really reconsider its platform on gay issues. Equality for LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender) people is the civil rights issue of our generation. This decision is me taking a stand.

Imagine if a company that promoted homosexuality and/or non-traditional relations (polyamory?) were to open shop in a christian district, and the mayor or alderman refused the company to open in his area because it went against his convictions and he was taking a stand.

Imagine the backlash. You would see no end to it.



happydolphin said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:
Sacrilege! Sacrificing fried chicken for political correctness violates one of the most important human rights!

It kind of is though. They guy is a restaurant owner, it doesn't matter if it's a big resto or sells fast-food. What matters is that he was stripped of the right to open shop because of his religious belief.

Had this been a christian region denying rights to a company supporting LGBT, imagine the backlash!

So that goes to show you the hypocracy of the debate, as well as the failure of democracy and freedom of belief and lifestyle.

Yep, these are all important issues, but I was actually referring to a far more important one: fried chicken itself!!! Fried chicken and french fries are the only eatable fast foods, denying them is pure cruelty!   



Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly! (Pontius Pilate, "Life of Brian")
A fart without stink is like a sky without stars.
TGS, Third Grade Shooter: brand new genre invented by Kevin Butler exclusively for Natal WiiToo Kinect. PEW! PEW-PEW-PEW! 
 


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happydolphin said:
badgenome said:
Mr Khan said:

Isn't letting me read unless i sign in.

It's an op-ed by the alderman you cited in the OP that attempts to explain why he feels that it's important to violate civil rights in order to support civil rights. The gist of it was, "Because fuck you, that's why."

:) I signed up and transcripted it.

Pretty funny shit honestly.

Alderman Joe Moreno:

 

The intolerance of an organization and then my lack of acceptance of that intolerance is not hypocrisy, that's so self-amoric.

In thinking it's not about someone having a different view than you, that's not what it's about. What it's about is discriminating against individuals in our society. it's not about believing in a different God, it's not about believing either in Christ or having a different belief.

See they always try to do that, they try to say, 'oh well if we believe in something different... would you do this to a muslim company?" Well if a muslim company, -owned company, was outwardly discriminating against a section and supported policies that discriminated, yes. 

But not just because they're muslim. 90% of the comments and e-mails and phone calls that I've gotten 90+% have been supportive. I think this is healthy, I think that these kinds of issues are not easy. This is a restaurant who's CEO who's practices are against the rights of individuals that live in my ward and I'm not gonna stand on the sidelines and allow that to happen.

 

I don't believe he has the right to behave like this. If he disagrees with Cathy there are other ways to go about it than this. This is just unacceptable. Jim Henson the same. It's discrimination towards Christian beliefs.

In Canada this would not fly I wouldn't think.


While those politicians where completely overstepping their bounds Jim Henson's family were 100% justified in their actions. I would have thought less of them to have acted in any other way. Excluding same-sex couples from the benefits of marriage is discriminatory and Henson's family really should have no part of it. Again, Christians are losing nothing by supporting same-sex marriage, this only effects the government, insurance organizations, other religious groups who support same-sex marriage, etc...



Alby_da_Wolf said:

Yep, these are all important issues, but I was actually referring to a far more important one: fried chicken itself!!! Fried chicken and french fries are the only eatable fast foods, denying them is pure cruelty!   

:)) You always know how to find the funny side of things, good for you.



bouzane said:

While those politicians where completely overstepping their bounds

Yes, they clearly were.

 Jim Henson's family were 100% justified in their actions.  I would have thought less of them to have acted in any other way.

Your wording is tricky. It's not just a family, they also are a business. Though I agree that they don't want their image affected by the bond between them and a non pro-gay-marriage organization, they are not in the right to refuse partnership on the grounds of disagreement of convictions.

Of course I prefer this to companies that lie about it but deep down it's because of this, that is for sure. But still,  if they expect oppenness from the christian community, this is not the way to go about it because they're setting the wrong example.

So I personally would have thought more of them had they acted the other way, stating that though they disagreed with Chick-fil-A, in the name of harmony they would partner with them to show that it is possible for people of starkly opposing views to work together.

As for the idea of encouraging a business that stands for things you don't, how many times a day do I buy products from businesses that sponsor communities or causes I disagree with? Let's be honest here.

Excluding same-sex couples from the benefits of marriage is discriminatory

So I was thinking about this and it all depends on your viewpoint. For instance, slavery was abolished thankfully in the United States, though we stripped the luxury from slave-owners. The question is whether or not a priviledge is being stripped. The question is whether or not that priviledge is considered acceptable in the first place. To certain christians, homosexual marriage is not. They are against it. So even if they are asking for a right to be removed, that doesn't make their plea wrong. What would make their plea wrong is if being against it is wrong in the first place.

That's what you should be discussing. Otherwise you're just shifting the issue where it doesn't count and then will get called a hypocrite when you ask to strip rights from someone because you disagree with their practice (like it will very likely happen in the future).

Again, Christians are losing nothing by supporting same-sex marriage, this only effects the government, insurance organizations, other religious groups who support same-sex marriage, etc...

You repeating this does not make it more true. I'm not here yet, but I can't say I agree. I'll leave it here till the more important points are resolved.



happydolphin said:

Here is the excerpt from Joe Moreno on the Chicago Tribune:

Ald. Joe Moreno:

By Proco “Joe” Moreno

July 26, 2012

Home Depot in the 2500 block of North Elston Avenue wants to sell a piece of its land so that a Chick-fil-A restaurant can open in the 1st Ward, where I am alderman. It would be the fast-food chain's first "stand-alone" Chicago restaurant. But to subdivide the land, the companies need my approval.

Initially, I had some traffic concerns with their plan. But then I heard the bigoted, homophobic comments by Chick-fil-A President Dan Cathy, who recently came out against same-sex marriage.

There are consequences for one's actions, statements and beliefs. Because of this man's ignorance, I will deny Chick-fil-A a permit to open a restaurant in my ward.

I've been in discussions with the company for the past nine months. Every time we met, I brought up my concerns that the company supported a homophobic agenda. My concerns were based on financial contributions made by WinShape Foundation, Chick-fil-A's charitable endeavor, to anti-gay groups. I was repeatedly told by company officials that "we (Chick-fil-A) are not political" and that the company "had no political agenda." Just recently, an attorney for the chain tried to convince me of Chick-fil-A's benevolence. During each meeting, I challenged the company to change its ways. Although I thought we had made some progress, Cathy's anti-gay comments made it abundantly clear what the company's true stance is toward equal rights.

In an interview with the Biblical Recorder, he was asked about the company's fervent support of the traditional family. "Well, guilty as charged," he said. "We are very much supportive of the family — the biblical definition of the family unit. We are a family-owned business, a family-led business, and we are married to our first wives. We give God thanks for that."

Obviously, Cathy has the right to believe, say and give money to whatever cause he wants. But my belief in equality is resolute, and if I were to take the easy way out and turn a blind eye to his remarks, I would be turning my back on the principles I stand for.

Chick-fil-A did put out a damage-control response, which was basically worthless lip service. If company officials read this commentary, they most likely will come back with the trite corporate accusation, which is rolled out every time a business has a problem with government: "Ald. Moreno doesn't care about jobs." Nothing could be further from the truth. I am proud of my track record on promoting and assisting businesses to open and grow in the 1st Ward. I would argue that a company with such overtly bigoted beliefs is bad for business and jobs in the 1st Ward, not the reverse.

I represent a diverse, forward-thinking community, and I'm sure the majority of 1st Warders find Cathy's comments and attitude repugnant. Even if I did give Chick-fil-A the go-ahead, I suspect many in my community wouldn't spend their dollars there.

I know my decision may anger or annoy some people. It's just a chicken place, they will say. But I believe Chick-fil-A should really reconsider its platform on gay issues. Equality for LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender) people is the civil rights issue of our generation. This decision is me taking a stand.

Imagine if a company that promoted homosexuality and/or non-traditional relations (polyamory?) were to open shop in a christian district, and the mayor or alderman refused the company to open in his area because it went against his convictions and he was taking a stand.

Imagine the backlash. You would see no end to it.


After this, i seriously hope this happens. It's only fair



happydolphin said:
badgenome said:
Mr Khan said:

Isn't letting me read unless i sign in.

It's an op-ed by the alderman you cited in the OP that attempts to explain why he feels that it's important to violate civil rights in order to support civil rights. The gist of it was, "Because fuck you, that's why."

:) I signed up and transcripted it.

Pretty funny shit honestly.

Alderman Joe Moreno:

 

The intolerance of an organization and then my lack of acceptance of that intolerance is not hypocrisy, that's so self-amoric.

In thinking it's not about someone having a different view than you, that's not what it's about. What it's about is discriminating against individuals in our society. it's not about believing in a different God, it's not about believing either in Christ or having a different belief.

See they always try to do that, they try to say, 'oh well if we believe in something different... would you do this to a muslim company?" Well if a muslim company, -owned company, was outwardly discriminating against a section and supported policies that discriminated, yes. 

But not just because they're muslim. 90% of the comments and e-mails and phone calls that I've gotten 90+% have been supportive. I think this is healthy, I think that these kinds of issues are not easy. This is a restaurant who's CEO who's practices are against the rights of individuals that live in my ward and I'm not gonna stand on the sidelines and allow that to happen.

 

I don't believe he has the right to behave like this. If he disagrees with Cathy there are other ways to go about it than this. This is just unacceptable. Jim Henson the same. It's discrimination towards Christian beliefs.

In Canada this would not fly I wouldn't think.

It's discrimination against actions that have their basis in Christianity, which is less morally reprehensible than targeting Christianity itself.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.