madskillz said: Squall_Leonhart said: By some of your people's logic if Sony should have put the 'Does not play Playstation 2 format titles' in big writing on the front of the box i would have to say the same for MS! They should put 'Warning: 33% failure rate' on the box also... Its common knowledge that the PS3 doesn't play PS2 games so no offence but its your fault... The 80gb, the 60gb and the 20gb PS3s play PS2 games - the 40gb doesn't play them. You don't *think* that would be confusing? I could see if the units didn't come with hard drives, but they all do - and just one of them can't play PS2 games. The PS brand was always about BC. To drop it matters to tons of consumers. The only one I'd buy is the 60gb one for the FULL BC. I am fed up with these half-efforts by MS and Sony at BC. Give me something that plays my old skool games without taking up much real estate. And to the folks that say just keep your PS2 - that makes NO SENSE. Maybe, if you have games on a hard drive in your PS2, and truthfully, if someone is not impressed with the current lineup, but have tons of PS2 games, giving them BC is a given these days. The Wii has it - the 360 - with a HD - has it. This isn't the first time Sony took something away from gamers and said it wasn't necessary. Rumble - so last gen - comes to mind. Now, folks are flocking to get Sixasis with rumble ...

 Sony cut production on the 20 and 60 as far as I know. So were going to be seeing an 80g (BC) and a 40g (non BC), not too complicated :P

The PS brand has always had BC true, but I'm not sure thats what the "PS Brand" is about. It's a feature they like because it continues to sell old software, and it's massive on the "hardcore players", not so much on the casual market, my grandmother still calls my PS2 the "Nintendo" after all. Software matters more than BC in my opinion, it's a luxury over anything. It's a smart move to include it so people can make the gradual step up, but I'm not saying Sony's always intelegent ;) Removing it was dumb in my opinion, but not critical for mass media.

I bought the 80 cuz I wanted more room and I heard rumors that it  used a different antenna or something? I haven't had any controller disconnects with it so I'm assuming it might be true? Plus it was only $40 dollars more, it seemed worth it to me :P But yeah if you could find a 60 I'd go with that all the way.

I agree with your statement that having multiple units around blows ass :P So far ninty was the only smart one by forcing BC. The 360 and PS3 are in the same boat, some models have it, some don't.  I like simplicity of use when it comes to wires, and having my PS3 do everything and then some for my entertainment center needs is a must have. So I do not keep my PS2 in the center. And not everyone should have to, they SHOULD have kept BC on the 40 gig IMO, I understand why they did, I just don't necesarrily agree :P

And I think rumble is a great feature yes, but the end of the world? Not by a long shot, if losing rumble meant that much to some people, there kind of sad, and just a bit pathetic... Again not something Sony should have dropped, but not the end of the world. 

Magnific0 said: Haha, Squall_Leonhart is so right. Backwards compatibility is not a feature that is to be taken for granted in ANY console, therefore the right thing is, if you care about it, you should ask/find out. Companies don't advertise BC, they don't put a big flashy sign on the box to let you know it's included. Likewise they won't advertise it's not included. How many wii sports playing people care if the Wii is BC? Can anyone tell if any console or portable is BC by a quick glance of the box? I doubt anyone besides PlayStation fans still care and talk about BC, and the reason is simple : the PS2 has many great games and it's still going strong, the previous gen of the other companies (xbox and cube) sucked and ceased to exist so people don't care about BC that much. Given the amount of PS2 still selling in the world, it's logical to think the majority of those PS2 owners will eventually jump to PS3, and if BC continues to show as one very relevant feature for these consumers then Sony will have pay close attention to their demands. I think BC is more valued in America, and I believe the PS3 will only truly take flight (beat 360 in USA) when a BC able PS3 comes down the $400 barrier. But also, Sony will cut PS2's price and they should do it quickly. A $99 PS2 could also mean more people would jump on a Non-BC PS3 and have the option to buy their full PS2 playability in a whole PS2.

 

I bought a Wii for the Wii, then found out it could play GC games. I am thrilled! I never owned a GC, but I do now ...

I don't have space for another console. I have a 360/system selector, receiver and PS2 on a small shelf. The Wii sits on the floor by my one of my HD receivers. The HD DVR sits atop my other freevo DVR and my HD A2 HD DVD player sits atop all of it. Literally, I don't have space unless I lose a component. I can put my PS2 downstairs and toss the crappy DVD player down there.

Except for the PS1, the PS has had BC. The other console makers saw how that feature added value to the console. I was hesistant to buying my 360 at first when I heard MS wasn't gonna do BC. Then, they backpedaled and included the feature. It was the best move for them. Why? Some of us have 50 plus games on the PS2 and Xbox each. BC was touted as a core value not by me, but Phil Harrison:

 "Backwards compatibility, as you know from PlayStation One and PlayStation 2, is a core value of what we believe we should offer. And access to the library of content people have created, bought for themselves, and accumulated over the years is necessary to create a format. PlayStation is a format meaning that it transcends many devices -- PSOne, PS2, and now PS3."

Source: http://www.gamepro.com/news.cfm?article_id=55108

He stated it. Not a fanboy, but a Sony exec! Now, it's no longer a core value? You may be more than ready to sell your old games and dive into the next gen, but a ton of gamers aren't. And to have another console clogging up your space isn't an option.

I am close to landing a 60gb PS3 for one reason - BC. Buying the 80gb and definitely the 40gb aren't options for me, as well as other PS2 gamers with huge libraries. 

 

Majority of people don't know all that much about what they are buying or doing with electronics. Like parents or grandparents buying systems for xmas and a good selling point (My kids have a lot of PS2 games I paid a bunch for them. I don't want to see them go to waste.).

Heck I have my father calling myself the other day on how to get the DVD player working because he wasn't on the right AV connection. When I was a kid I would do a lot of research because I really wanted something. But I can see a lot of kids today not doing that. As a matter of fact I see a rise in hollow headed children.

madskillz said: Magnific0 said: Haha, Squall_Leonhart is so right. Backwards compatibility is not a feature that is to be taken for granted in ANY console, therefore the right thing is, if you care about it, you should ask/find out. Companies don't advertise BC, they don't put a big flashy sign on the box to let you know it's included. Likewise they won't advertise it's not included. How many wii sports playing people care if the Wii is BC? Can anyone tell if any console or portable is BC by a quick glance of the box? I doubt anyone besides PlayStation fans still care and talk about BC, and the reason is simple : the PS2 has many great games and it's still going strong, the previous gen of the other companies (xbox and cube) sucked and ceased to exist so people don't care about BC that much. Given the amount of PS2 still selling in the world, it's logical to think the majority of those PS2 owners will eventually jump to PS3, and if BC continues to show as one very relevant feature for these consumers then Sony will have pay close attention to their demands. I think BC is more valued in America, and I believe the PS3 will only truly take flight (beat 360 in USA) when a BC able PS3 comes down the $400 barrier. But also, Sony will cut PS2's price and they should do it quickly. A $99 PS2 could also mean more people would jump on a Non-BC PS3 and have the option to buy their full PS2 playability in a whole PS2. I bought a Wii for the Wii, then found out it could play GC games. I am thrilled! I never owned a GC, but I do now ... I don't have space for another console. I have a 360/system selector, receiver and PS2 on a small shelf. The Wii sits on the floor by my one of my HD receivers. The HD DVR sits atop my other freevo DVR and my HD A2 HD DVD player sits atop all of it. Literally, I don't have space unless I lose a component. I can put my PS2 downstairs and toss the crappy DVD player down there. Except for the PS1, the PS has had BC. The other console makers saw how that feature added value to the console. I was hesistant to buying my 360 at first when I heard MS wasn't gonna do BC. Then, they backpedaled and included the feature. It was the best move for them. Why? Some of us have 50 plus games on the PS2 and Xbox each. BC was touted as a core value not by me, but Phil Harrison: "Backwards compatibility, as you know from PlayStation One and PlayStation 2, is a core value of what we believe we should offer. And access to the library of content people have created, bought for themselves, and accumulated over the years is necessary to create a format. PlayStation is a format meaning that it transcends many devices -- PSOne, PS2, and now PS3." Source: http://www.gamepro.com/news.cfm?article_id=55108 He stated it. Not a fanboy, but a Sony exec! Now, it's no longer a core value? You may be more than ready to sell your old games and dive into the next gen, but a ton of gamers aren't. And to have another console clogging up your space isn't an option. I am close to landing a 60gb PS3 for one reason - BC. Buying the 80gb and definitely the 40gb aren't options for me, as well as other PS2 gamers with huge libraries.

 And with that stoke of genius from Mr Madskills, I believe we can put an end to this argument.  Sony said that backward compatability was important, and derided MS for not having it.  They promoted it, and then quietly dumped it from only one model.  I heard their ads saying how cheap the new 40gb was, but I don't recall those same ads saying that PS2 compatability was no longer included as it was no longer a 'core' value.

starcraft said: madskillz said: I bought a Wii for the Wii, then found out it could play GC games. I am thrilled! I never owned a GC, but I do now ... I don't have space for another console. I have a 360/system selector, receiver and PS2 on a small shelf. The Wii sits on the floor by my one of my HD receivers. The HD DVR sits atop my other freevo DVR and my HD A2 HD DVD player sits atop all of it. Literally, I don't have space unless I lose a component. I can put my PS2 downstairs and toss the crappy DVD player down there. Except for the PS1, the PS has had BC. The other console makers saw how that feature added value to the console. I was hesistant to buying my 360 at first when I heard MS wasn't gonna do BC. Then, they backpedaled and included the feature. It was the best move for them. Why? Some of us have 50 plus games on the PS2 and Xbox each. BC was touted as a core value not by me, but Phil Harrison: "Backwards compatibility, as you know from PlayStation One and PlayStation 2, is a core value of what we believe we should offer. And access to the library of content people have created, bought for themselves, and accumulated over the years is necessary to create a format. PlayStation is a format meaning that it transcends many devices -- PSOne, PS2, and now PS3." Source: http://www.gamepro.com/news.cfm?article_id=55108 He stated it. Not a fanboy, but a Sony exec! Now, it's no longer a core value? You may be more than ready to sell your old games and dive into the next gen, but a ton of gamers aren't. And to have another console clogging up your space isn't an option. I am close to landing a 60gb PS3 for one reason - BC. Buying the 80gb and definitely the 40gb aren't options for me, as well as other PS2 gamers with huge libraries.   And with that stoke of genius from Mr Madskills, I believe we can put an end to this argument. Sony said that backward compatability was important, and derided MS for not having it. They promoted it, and then quietly dumped it from only one model. I heard their ads saying how cheap the new 40gb was, but I don't recall those same ads saying that PS2 compatability was no longer included as it was no longer a 'core' value.

But that statement mentions "What we BELIEVE we SHOULD offer". Do you think Sony wanted BC in the 40 gig? I do :P Why in gods name would they WANT to push a model that wouldent play their old merchandise? People were whining about cost, not BC. So Sony takes a hit, drops the cost, and people whine about BC xD Of course they believe it's a critical part of a sales strategy, we just need to stop acting like they took BC out all together, they still have a model that has it, and a model that doesn't. I don't necesarrily see the problem o.O

I've been looking at all the major online vendors, Amazon, Walmart, EBGames, Best Buy. NONE of them mention not being BC with PS2 games in their descriptions.

FishyJoe said: I think multiple SKUs could be one of the big mistakes of this generation besides over pricing. Like others have said it's confusing. Also, it makes people wonder if another newer/better/cheaper model is around the corner. Combine that with constant price cutting and you condition consumers to wait instead of just buying right now. If a consumer knows there will only be one model through the forseeable future and no price cuts, there is no reason to wait.

 True, but sony had no other choice.

Just for the record the 360 Core didn't have BC but the Arcade does. Remember the Arcade does come with a memory card and that is all you need for BC on the 360. So all 3 models have BC for MS and now Sony who stressed it was a core value are now moving away from that.

Kasz216 said: superchunk said: What I don't understand is why it does use the same software emulation as the 80G??? I mean the cost to include that software must be next to nothing. Clearly, it so the 40g is less attractive and people purchase the 80g. The Emotion Engine is too diffcult and costly to emulate. They took the chips out to save... about 20 bucks per unit i believe.

Close but not quite.

The original 60 Gb model had the PS2 EE and GS chips.  They removed the EE chip and made the 80 Gb model using software emulation to compensate for the missing EE chip.

Going from the 80 Gb model to the 40 Gb model they also removed the GS chip meaning they'd have to have the 40 Gb model emulate the EE chip and somehow emulate the GS chip to get full BC on it.

It's the GS that's difficult to emulate. The EE was relatively quite simple.